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#85521 - 02/28/09 10:42 PM Summer Conditional Programs?
LawGirl10 Offline
Senior Member


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 30
Has anyone attended one of these? They're more like performance based admissions programs.

2 law schools accepted me into this program but I'm unsure of where to go.

What sorts of questions should I be asking besides how many students make the cut?

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#85522 - 02/28/09 11:01 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: LawGirl10]
Nomos Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I've heard several stories about these. Several will pass but only a few of those are accepted. Also that those that who do take it and get in are often at the top of the class. That isn't hard to imagine because you have to take the courses over again only this time for credit.
_________________________
Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire, their steps involving in destruction dire. Come, blest, abundant power, whom all reverse, by all desired, with favouring mind draw near; give me through life on thee to fix my sight, and never forsake the equal paths of right." - Orphic Hymn 64 to Nomos

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#85525 - 03/01/09 01:27 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Nomos]
brodle1 Offline
Beyond hope


Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 1847
Loc: Portland, OR
Search the archives for Nova Southeastern - there was a discussion a few years back (2003 - 2005...I can't remember) about Nova's program (amongst others) that got into the plusses and minuses of each.
_________________________
If you're going to gamble, bet on yourself, and big. - Yo Baby Daddy, member #2697 Also don't forget to visit The Breast Cancer Site at http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/home every day and click on the pink Fund Free Mammograms button to help fund free mammograms for homeless, low-income women.

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#85526 - 03/01/09 01:53 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: brodle1]
Still Cougar Offline
NTL Addict


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 870
Loc: Houston, TX
Here's the thread brodle1 mentioned. Definitely some good info on this topic:

Nova Thread
_________________________
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#85533 - 03/01/09 07:39 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Still Cougar]
Nomos Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I found this. Pass rates are pretty low. The classes are intensive and few pass probably because you don't have a semester to "get it" but only a few weeks. It is ALL about how to write a law school exam. There is little or no guidance with how to write. Are there any GOOD reference materials out there on writing exams?

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php?topic=34914.msg561540



Edited by Nomos (03/01/09 07:45 PM)
_________________________
Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire, their steps involving in destruction dire. Come, blest, abundant power, whom all reverse, by all desired, with favouring mind draw near; give me through life on thee to fix my sight, and never forsake the equal paths of right." - Orphic Hymn 64 to Nomos

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#85536 - 03/01/09 08:34 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Nomos]
iceborer Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 04/25/08
Posts: 208
 Originally Posted By: Nomos
Are there any GOOD reference materials out there on writing exams?


Not to change the subject, but I'm reading Getting to Maybe. Of course, I haven't taken a law exam yet, but it seems pretty useful so far.
_________________________
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

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#85539 - 03/01/09 09:01 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: iceborer]
LawGirl10 Offline
Senior Member


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 30
Thanks everyone for your replies.

I've been accepted at 3 programs and I'm just trying to decide where to go.

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#85775 - 03/23/09 12:19 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: LawGirl10]
Nomos Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I was "accepted" into a summer conditional program. I'm just amazed that they responded soooooooo quickly. I know my file at the other schools were only completed about 12 days ago and got this decision last week. I haven't heard from the others but my guess is, to quote a famous song, "that if I can't make it there (as a regularly admitted student) I won't make it anywhere." I may have gotten in if I had applied earlier - I took the Feb. LSAT. I was only 2 points off from their 25% LSAT level and was at about their 70% level for GPA. The program costs $1,300.00 for 3 classes. On the negative - I really don't have the money to throw around. I've been unemployed for a year with little prospect for work. BTW went on interview last week and was told by the company owner that “we need a physically fit person” and complaining about the tweediness of his life he said that if he were 30 (again) this would be the perfect job. On the other hand if I pass the program, granted the pass rate is extremely low, I will know if I like/can hack LS. If I don't do it will I always wonder, "what if"? I managed to find a copy of an old Civil Procedure exam from the summer program in the schools on-line library. It is becoming a matter of waiting. Will I hear from the others before the deposit has to be sent?
_________________________
Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire, their steps involving in destruction dire. Come, blest, abundant power, whom all reverse, by all desired, with favouring mind draw near; give me through life on thee to fix my sight, and never forsake the equal paths of right." - Orphic Hymn 64 to Nomos

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#85798 - 03/24/09 06:06 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: iceborer]
Edintally Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 161
 Originally Posted By: iceborer
 Originally Posted By: Nomos
Are there any GOOD reference materials out there on writing exams?


Not to change the subject, but I'm reading Getting to Maybe. Of course, I haven't taken a law exam yet, but it seems pretty useful so far.


For exams http://www.leews.com/

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#85802 - 03/25/09 07:29 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Edintally]
Nomos Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Thanks! I'm awaiting delivery as well as, "A Practical Guide to Writing Law School Essay Exams" by John C. Dernbach. But I wonder a bit on how useful they will be. Do professors have a specific way they want you to answer THEIR questions or is there some standard way to answer law school exams?
_________________________
Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire, their steps involving in destruction dire. Come, blest, abundant power, whom all reverse, by all desired, with favouring mind draw near; give me through life on thee to fix my sight, and never forsake the equal paths of right." - Orphic Hymn 64 to Nomos

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#85805 - 03/25/09 06:30 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Nomos]
oldlawgirl Offline
NTL Addict


Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 595
Most professors follow the basic IRAC. Issue Rule Analysis COnclusion with analysis being the most important prong. I once got a very high grade in a class where my black letter law (rule) and, therefore, conclusion were dead wrong. But, I was one of the few that spotted the real issue at hand and my analysis was good, even if I was applying the wrong rule.

BUt, many professors will have a very specific way they want you to answer and they will tell you ahead of time. Many profs make old exams and answers available and others will have optional exam sessions ahead of the testing period. Go to those! But, you can never go wrong following the basic IRAC approach. Also, remember that many profs are now adding multiple choice questions because they are trying to prep you for that part of the bar exam. These are not your normal multiple choice questions though. Will still have to consider IRAC to get to the right answer.

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#85812 - 03/25/09 10:07 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: oldlawgirl]
Olderthanmost Offline
Contributor


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Massachusetts
Three weeks ago I got an email from Florida Coastal's Director of Admissions.
I was offered a seat in their AAMPLE program, which I can see from two different viewpoints. I see it as an opportunity to perhaps increase my chances of getting into one law school.
On the other hand, it sure fattens their coffers when they claim a 20-50% success rate, with last year being only 33%. They're only accepting 90 students, so at a total fee of $3500, that's 315K and a nice deposit.
The two online courses are an Intro to the 4th Amendment and Negotiable Instruments, with the test being offered at a few locations. It didn't seem like a win-win situation to me.
Caveat emptor or something close to it.
Norm
_________________________
"We are in bondage to the law so that we may be set free"
Cicero

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#85815 - 03/26/09 12:27 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Olderthanmost]
judoandgolfer Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 194
Norm,

I was accepted to the summer conditional program at Florida Coastal last year. I decided against it for the same reasons you mentioned. It seems like a nice way for the school to make money and the students in the program have a very slim chance of getting in. I didn't even apply to Coastal because It wasn't a school I wanted to attend. That was another major decision why I didn't go. They obtained my information from LSAC.

I play on taking the LSAT again in October and hopefully I'll do better to gain regular acceptance.
_________________________
Ron

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#85818 - 03/26/09 07:53 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Olderthanmost]
Nomos Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
$3,500 that is pretty pricey. Widener is $1,500.00. Text books run $100/150. The three courses are Civil Procedure, Torts and Legal Methods. Classes are given at night on Tuesdays, Wendsdays and Thrusdays starting May 19th; the last exam is June 25th. They are fairly upfront about pass rates. They have been UP TO 25/30% but it could be less. If you don't pass you can NOT apply to Widener in the future.
_________________________
Foe to the lawless, with avenging ire, their steps involving in destruction dire. Come, blest, abundant power, whom all reverse, by all desired, with favouring mind draw near; give me through life on thee to fix my sight, and never forsake the equal paths of right." - Orphic Hymn 64 to Nomos

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#85819 - 03/26/09 09:58 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Nomos]
Olderthanmost Offline
Contributor


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Massachusetts
The word 'predatory' comes to mind...at least with some of these programs.
I know their argument would be that they're offering X number of aspirants the opportunity to go to law school, but for those who don't pass, it seems as though it would leave them further stressed, for lack of a better word, over the whole process of trying to get into law school.
At a recent open house, I asked the two students conducting the tour how long it took to become used to case law terminology and both responded about a month. So it would appear there's not much time to "get it' and further, these schools are obviously looking only for about a quarter of the folks attending these programs.
_________________________
"We are in bondage to the law so that we may be set free"
Cicero

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#86177 - 04/16/09 11:13 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: Olderthanmost]
LawGirl10 Offline
Senior Member


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 30
What is case law terminology?

 Originally Posted By: Olderthanmost
The word 'predatory' comes to mind...at least with some of these programs.
I know their argument would be that they're offering X number of aspirants the opportunity to go to law school, but for those who don't pass, it seems as though it would leave them further stressed, for lack of a better word, over the whole process of trying to get into law school.
At a recent open house, I asked the two students conducting the tour how long it took to become used to case law terminology and both responded about a month. So it would appear there's not much time to "get it' and further, these schools are obviously looking only for about a quarter of the folks attending these programs.

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#86182 - 04/16/09 12:31 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: LawGirl10]
oldlawgirl Offline
NTL Addict


Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 595
Case law terminology would be the basic words used in all lawsuits and in judge's opinions. Examples: Petitioner, Respondent, PLaintiff, Defendant, Appeal, Reversed, Affirmed, majority, dissent, appellant, appellee, etc. And there are the legal terms like "sua sponte", "de novo", and on and on and on.

I always thought that a couple of pages of these terms and their definitions should be mandatory reading before law school started. It can bog down your reading and understanding of cases at the beginning until you get the hang of it. Buy a small, paperback version of a legal dictionary (Black's is a good one) and keep it handy while doing your reading.

Another thing to learn ahead of time is how cases flow through the lower courts to the highest court and the names of those courts. Understand this for both the federal system and your own state system at least (each state is slightly different). For example: Illinois. A lawsuit/criminal case originates in the local circuit courts. A decision in the circuit court is appealed to the Appellate Courts. There are 5 appellate courts in Illinois divided into districts and there is a "banc" of judges making the decision, not a single judge like in the circuit court. An appellate decision is appealed to the State SUpreme Court. That is a final decision except in some cases (which I won't get into) it can go to the United States Supreme Court.
Also, keep in mind that there are administrative courts systems in each state, such as the Workmen's COmpensation courts. They have their own appeals process but when that is exhausted, may start at the bottom of the court system and then work it's way through that.

A quick overview of the federal courts: Lowest courts are the district courts. Some states have one, some states have several, based on population. The next level is the Appeals Court. Also "en banc", not a single judge. These courts frequently span state lines and you will often hear a term "split among the circuits". For instance, one Appeals court circuit may rule one way on an issue and another may rule a different way. These are the types of cases that are often accepted by the United States Supreme Court which is the final word, of course.

When you are reading a case, figure out the flow of the case....and exactly where you are in the court system and what is the status of the case on each level. For instance......verdict for the Plaintiff in circuit court. Defendant appeals in appellate court which reverses and "remands" (that is sends it back down to the circuit court to reconsider or hear it again, this time the correct way). Or the Appellate court "affirms" the circuit court and then the Defendant appeals that decision to the Supreme Court in the state and the SC can affirm, overturn, remand, etc. and sometimes the appeal can go the US supreme Court. You will almost always be reading appellate court and supreme court decisions in your casebooks.

Remember, that not all justices in the higher courts will agree with the majority decision and they often write dissents. The dissents are not rulings but give you some insight on the other side and analysis and professors love to pick apart dissents.

One more hint - when a party appeals they may no longer be referred to as the Plaintiff/Defendant or PEtitioner/Respondent. They become the appellant/appellee. I would have a heck of a time keeping who was who straight. I jotted it down in the margins, assigning their real name to each designation. This may sound trivial, but it is easy to lose track of who "won" or "lost" just because you got their designations mixed up. Always be mindful of who is suing who and who is appealing what decision to which court.

Wow - I really need that coffee now.

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#86185 - 04/16/09 01:19 PM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: oldlawgirl]
LawGirl10 Offline
Senior Member


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 30
Totally awesome!!

Thank you!! : )


 Originally Posted By: oldlawgirl
Case law terminology would be the basic words used in all lawsuits and in judge's opinions. Examples: Petitioner, Respondent, PLaintiff, Defendant, Appeal, Reversed, Affirmed, majority, dissent, appellant, appellee, etc. And there are the legal terms like "sua sponte", "de novo", and on and on and on.

I always thought that a couple of pages of these terms and their definitions should be mandatory reading before law school started. It can bog down your reading and understanding of cases at the beginning until you get the hang of it. Buy a small, paperback version of a legal dictionary (Black's is a good one) and keep it handy while doing your reading.

Another thing to learn ahead of time is how cases flow through the lower courts to the highest court and the names of those courts. Understand this for both the federal system and your own state system at least (each state is slightly different). For example: Illinois. A lawsuit/criminal case originates in the local circuit courts. A decision in the circuit court is appealed to the Appellate Courts. There are 5 appellate courts in Illinois divided into districts and there is a "banc" of judges making the decision, not a single judge like in the circuit court. An appellate decision is appealed to the State SUpreme Court. That is a final decision except in some cases (which I won't get into) it can go to the United States Supreme Court.
Also, keep in mind that there are administrative courts systems in each state, such as the Workmen's COmpensation courts. They have their own appeals process but when that is exhausted, may start at the bottom of the court system and then work it's way through that.

A quick overview of the federal courts: Lowest courts are the district courts. Some states have one, some states have several, based on population. The next level is the Appeals Court. Also "en banc", not a single judge. These courts frequently span state lines and you will often hear a term "split among the circuits". For instance, one Appeals court circuit may rule one way on an issue and another may rule a different way. These are the types of cases that are often accepted by the United States Supreme Court which is the final word, of course.

When you are reading a case, figure out the flow of the case....and exactly where you are in the court system and what is the status of the case on each level. For instance......verdict for the Plaintiff in circuit court. Defendant appeals in appellate court which reverses and "remands" (that is sends it back down to the circuit court to reconsider or hear it again, this time the correct way). Or the Appellate court "affirms" the circuit court and then the Defendant appeals that decision to the Supreme Court in the state and the SC can affirm, overturn, remand, etc. and sometimes the appeal can go the US supreme Court. You will almost always be reading appellate court and supreme court decisions in your casebooks.

Remember, that not all justices in the higher courts will agree with the majority decision and they often write dissents. The dissents are not rulings but give you some insight on the other side and analysis and professors love to pick apart dissents.

One more hint - when a party appeals they may no longer be referred to as the Plaintiff/Defendant or PEtitioner/Respondent. They become the appellant/appellee. I would have a heck of a time keeping who was who straight. I jotted it down in the margins, assigning their real name to each designation. This may sound trivial, but it is easy to lose track of who "won" or "lost" just because you got their designations mixed up. Always be mindful of who is suing who and who is appealing what decision to which court.

Wow - I really need that coffee now.

Top
#86206 - 04/19/09 12:05 AM Re: Summer Conditional Programs? [Re: LawGirl10]
Olderthanmost Offline
Contributor


Registered: 08/01/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Massachusetts
Marleen,

As usual, you provided another good explanation.
Instead of "terminology" I should have been more succinct because when I asked the question of my tour guides I was also referring to what appeared to me as heavy or dense wording in the cases, which was somewhat more complex and not that easy for me to wade through in one reading. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I wanted to expand upon my original comments.

Thanks for your input.

Norm
_________________________
"We are in bondage to the law so that we may be set free"
Cicero

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