#93082 - 04/24/11 04:21 PM
Going to law school after 40
|
Legaltender
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Austin, TX
|
Hello my name is David. I am about to be 41 and have decided to go to law school. My GPA from college in 94 was a 2.3. I'm studying for the June LSAT. I come from a family of lawyers. I have my own small company doing Internet marketing. It pays the bills but I'm tired of dealing with google. I have always wanted to be a lawyer but as you can tell from my GPA Iwas not a big fan of school. The low GPA came from low attendance and low homework grades. I didn't show up or do homework. I just showed up and aced texts. I'm a very different person now. my plan is to gp into IP law. I want to use my 15 years of tech and Internet marketing experience as a lawyer. I have a firm grasp of technology and the Internet. Not sure the exact types of cases I will work with yet since I am spending all my time studying for the LSAT right now.I hope to get into a decent law school in northern CA since that is the hub of IT law.
I plan to hang out here to give updates and learn from others.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93084 - 04/24/11 06:49 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Legaltender]
|
cigarman
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Florida
|
David, I went to law school this year at 45 with a massive 2.57 GPA. Woo Hoo! I was a frat boy. I took the LSAT in June. Two pieces of advice. Apply NOW before you take the LSAT so you can start next year. The lower tier schools close admissions later and will accept you mid summer so you can start in the fall. They have to as the high scorers make their choices and waiting lists clear etc, sort of a trickle down. And check out law school predictor. It will pretty much tell you where you could get in. I wouldn't worry about taking the LSAT to see what score you get first. Even if you blow it out the top ranked schools aren't taking you with that GPA. So where you are going to get in is pretty much set. The real question is getting enough on the LSAT to get accepted ANYWHERE. As people age the LSATS go way down. The LSAC has statistics if you would like to be depressed. But, I did it, so I know you can. But... don't harbour the fantasy they don't look at your undergrad grades. Its a fixed hard formula. Life experience doesnt mean much. They really consider that AFTER you make the first cut and decide scholorships etc. My State school didn't even bother to mail me a rejection!
Anyway, good luck
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93085 - 04/24/11 08:47 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: cigarman]
|
haus
Senior Member
Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 26
Loc: Leesburg, VA
|
I am a year out from reaching my fourth decade.
Currently I am working on a Masters of IT. I have agreed with my wife that I will take two years off from school after I compete this degree, which should come to a close this December.
I have been in the IT industry for ~15 years, the last half has been focused on InfoSec. What I have seen over and over again is a disconnect in understanding between technical personnel and those who write devise/agree to contractual obligations on behalf of organizations. I suspect that a niche exist for those who can integrate with both those who write/agree to contracts and those who are tasked with actually implementing the tasks at hand.
One notable example of this disconnect can be found at the collapse of the Department of Veterans Affairs Information Security outsourcings contract, as described in the Inspector General's report:
http://www.va.gov/oig/52/reports/2007/VAOIG-04-03100-90.pdf
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93090 - 04/25/11 09:52 AM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: haus]
|
GerriP
Senior Contributor
Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 208
Loc: Alabama
|
Welcome LegalTender! I was a month shy of my 41st birthday when I started law school. The only thing you'll regret is not going for it! Not to contradict cigarman, but I believe most schools' application cycles are closed during this time of year. They usually accept applications between August 1 through March or April. But, check with the individual schools you are interested in to see. If they do accept applications, be aware that yours will not be reviewed until it is complete, which means the June LSAT score comes in.
Good luck studying for the LSAT!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93092 - 04/25/11 01:19 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: GerriP]
|
JDACNP
Contributor
Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 71
Loc: Metro DC area
|
Hi LegalTender,
I graduated college with a 2.7, have since gone back to school and earned a diploma (GPA 3.2), second BS (GPA 3.2) and Masters (GPA 3.45). Unfortunately, the schools do still look at your FIRST undergrad GPA. They don't even look at the other numbers. I just completed my cycle and will be starting law school in August. I was speaking with the director of admissions at the school I will be attending. He was unaware that I had anything past the initial BS.
Not trying to discourage you, but you do need to be realistic. That being said, go for it!!! Apply to the higher tiers if you like, but make sure you have a safety school.
Best of luck.
PS if you are planning on using an LSAT prep course, I really liked blueprint. they have an on-line, on-demand course as well as internet courses and in person courses. They seem better than most of the others and helped me increase my score by 14 points from my first practice test and 5 from my first real LSAT. (I have no relationship with them other than having completed their on demand course.
_________________________
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for--Earl Warren
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93093 - 04/25/11 02:40 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: haus]
|
forthguy
Beyond hope
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 1046
Loc: San Francisco, CA
|
I have been in the IT industry for ~15 years, the last half has been focused on InfoSec. What I have seen over and over again is a disconnect in understanding between technical personnel and those who write devise/agree to contractual obligations on behalf of organizations. I suspect that a niche exist for those who can integrate with both those who write/agree to contracts and those who are tasked with actually implementing the tasks at hand.
There's a niche, but it's neither easy to break into nor readily acknowledged. In other words, you better be prepared to make your own way.
For the most part, firms only care about technical backgrounds if they're hiring patent lawyers. When it comes to drafting technical requirements for contracts, delving into electronic discovery, etc., most firms and lawyers seem to think they can either contract with a techie or train a young associate to understand these things. They're probably wrong on both accounts, but that doesn't change the reality.
For folks like the OP, most folks couldn't care less about technical background for copyright or trademark. And when it comes to much of the other Google-y stuff, they've either got answers that don't require any technical expertise (e.g., section 230) or they'll just go to their firm's techies for some answers.
Part of the problem is, lawyers don't know one technical person from another. Plus, few have any real technical expertise at all. Combined, that means they cannot evaluate how some techie lawyer is any better for them than their much cheaper lit support person. Chances are good they'll think you're insane for leaving some technical profession anyway, because they'll think it sounds more interesting than lawyering.
Again, that's not to say that there are no roles for lawyers with these backgrounds. Most of 'em tend to be in-house, though, and most of those require some years of experience, so that you actually know what it means to be a lawyer. That may or may not be gradually changing. I see different signs all the time.
(I guess I should add: I had a 2.45 LSAC GPA. Still got in.)
Edited by forthguy (04/25/11 02:43 PM)
_________________________
: star 42 emit ;
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93094 - 04/25/11 06:48 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: GerriP]
|
cigarman
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Florida
|
Yes, I had to apply First then wait for my June Lsat result. A week after that I was accepted and given a scholarship by four of the six schools I applied to earlier. Many tier four schools are still takening apps now with the wait for June Lsat to come in bit. The key is apply NOW. With that GPA its going to be a tier 3 or four anyway unless he gets a 180 or something crazy on the LSAT, then you simply withdraw the tier 4 app this year and apply higher in the fall, or take the massive scholorship the tier four will give you. No harm in my mind in applying now while you still can. If you get a middle of the road LSAT you were going to that tier 3 or four anyway, and it will be a year sooner. If you blow it out... then make a choice. No harm no foul.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93149 - 04/30/11 05:15 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: cigarman]
|
backbencher
NTL Addict
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 868
Loc: Florida
|
David (and Cigar),
Welcome. First let me nuke this discussion of sub-par GPA. Mine was a stellar 2.67 (a little higher on LSAC for a semester away) and I got in fine to a 2T on a 160 LSAT. (And learned later I could have cracked 1T and gone home to UF if I had been able/willing to relocate.) Yes, without a truly sick LSAT, you are not going T14, and financial aid is not likely before 3T. But I don't think you should consign yourself to 3/4T just yet. And while these distinctions may not seem major, they are. 1T is still the best bet for employment, with 2T leading to useful work as well with diligence and effort. 3T is not so much, unless you are in a small market dominated by that 3T. 4T is the kiss of "immediate solo practice" and/or "law-related work." Also, LSAT outweighs GPA a lot (2:1 usually.) So until you have that, all speculation is a little premature. 
As to age? Look where you are posting! I was close to GerriP, starting school a month after 41. Age is not really an issue with law anyway (I had a classmate who was 70), since you are not going to practice medicine or pilot passenger jets. At the risk of being rude, this is not exactly a forum for 21 year-olds! We have grandparents here (so try to be a little quiet after 8!) 
As to specialty, fourthguy is 100% correct. You may be a tech guy in your industry, but you are nothing here yet. IP has been good money in the past, but it is hard to break into. Wait until you have some courses under your belt. You may be a great IP law guy, or you may find out you are better/more interested in zoning and development law, or probate, etc. I have seen law enforcement professionals turn into property lawyers and so forth. Without even a LSAT score it is way too early to box yourself in yet! 
Anyway, good luck and keep us posted. And cigarman, since you are already in school, take some time and introduce yourself. Where and what? How has it been going so far. We need some new perspectives here. 
_________________________
"Audere est Facere" (To Dare is To Do)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93171 - 05/02/11 01:52 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: backbencher]
|
Tiburon
Senior Contributor
Registered: 01/20/07
Posts: 166
|
LegalTender,
Just wanted to comment on the ip/tech transactions practice area. Yes, there is a niche practice area, but as forthguy said, it's my understanding that it's a tough niche to get into. A lot of lawyers who start out thinking they want to do patent prosecution try to make a switch to licensing, so there's quite a bit of competition in that area.
Also, based on conversations I've had with people in this practice area in biglaw, it's very tough to bill and the projects are always hard and often contentious. It's often the first thing that companies will bring in house. This is great if you want to work in house. However, in house you don't get much breadth of experience -- the hard stuff is outsourced. You also normally only see how one company does things.
You don't need a tech background to do licensing but it is considered a plus, as is previous business experience. Still, it's my pressipn that it's a tough are to break into.
Tiburon
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93261 - 05/10/11 05:06 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Tiburon]
|
Legaltender
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Austin, TX
|
Thanks for all the responses. I think I will apply at some low end schools to see what I can get into. Money is not an issues I can afford Harvard if I could get into it. I'm not too concerned about making money as a lawyer either. I have a lot of connections. I come from a family of lawyers. This is something I should have done a long time ago but just kept thinking school was not for me. At the time school probably was not for me.
As far as knowing congressmen and big time lawyers does that help at all getting into a good school?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93265 - 05/11/11 01:03 AM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Legaltender]
|
Legaltender
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Austin, TX
|
I went to LSAC and got a list of schools that take June LSAT scores for applications and also take low gpa's.
Albany Law School of Union University
Appalachian School of Law
Atlanta's John Marshall Law School
Capital University Law School
Charlotte School of Law
University of the District of Columbia--David A. Clarke School of Law
Drake University Law School
Elon University School of Law
University of La Verne College of Law
University of North Dakota School of Law
Ohio Northern University--Claude W. Pettit College of Law
Oklahoma City University School of Law
Phoenix School of Law
St. Thomas University School of Law
University of St. Thomas School of Law--Minneapolis
Texas Wesleyan University School of Law
The Thomas M. Cooley Law School
Thomas Jefferson School of Law
The University of Toledo College of Law
Touro College--Jacob D. Fuchsberg Law Center
The University of Tulsa College of Law
West Virginia University College of Law
Whittier Law School
Edited by Legaltender (05/11/11 01:03 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93268 - 05/11/11 02:48 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Legaltender]
|
AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 571
|
I just saw a news item saying that La Verne may be about to lose its ABA accreditation due to low bar passage rates. Just FYI.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93273 - 05/11/11 07:28 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: AnnaD]
|
Dutch
Senior Contributor
Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 210
|
although money is no issue (must be nice!) I'd still think that the state schools you have listed would be your better bets, esp. if you could establish residency after your first year. Why spend $ you don't have to?
_________________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. from 'V for Vendetta.'
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93275 - 05/11/11 08:54 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Dutch]
|
haus
Senior Member
Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 26
Loc: Leesburg, VA
|
UDC is an interesting school. It is in an area that is swimming with law schools (Georgetown, George Washington, George Mason, American, Catholic, Howard). But the it seems to have notably improved their bar passage rates in recent years, and it is the least expensive law school in the area. Its non-resident rate is less expensive than the in state tuition at George Mason, and far less expensive than GULC, GW, American or Catholic.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#93278 - 05/12/11 12:02 AM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: AnnaD]
|
backbencher
NTL Addict
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 868
Loc: Florida
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93279 - 05/12/11 12:20 AM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: backbencher]
|
AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 571
|
Is there a reason you're determined to go this fall? Why not wait a year so you can apply to a wider range of schools? Traditional lore says that applying earlier is a much better bet, even with a lower GPA. If you don't have any LSAT scores yet, it seems that planning applications just based on who takes June scores is premature.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93282 - 05/12/11 01:12 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: backbencher]
|
tonyg
I have a lot of time on my hands
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 290
Loc: The Wild Wild West
|
An important aspect to consider when deciding which school to attend is what classes and clinics the school offers. A lot of lower tier schools give you few options for your 2L and 3L years. One of the many reasons I chose my school is because I only had three required classes after my 1L year. This led to a very enjoyable experience as I chose the classes I wanted to take.
Make sure you check to see how many required classes are required at the school of your choice. You will be surprised to see that many schools require quite a few.
Also, this is an opinion, but don't be sucked into the argument that more required classes is better (usually required classes are classes of subjects tested on the bar) as I only took 8 of the 21 bar subject classes in law school and I have no regrets.
Good luck to you!
_________________________
Class of 2010.5
Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in. W. Churchill
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93298 - 05/13/11 04:43 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: tonyg]
|
Legaltender
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Austin, TX
|
So I got some saying it is better to just get going and start in fall and others saying it is worth the wait. I do get the whole "where did you go to law school" thing. That is something to consider.
Does anybody have an opinion of Whittier Law School?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93299 - 05/13/11 04:51 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Legaltender]
|
tonyg
I have a lot of time on my hands
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 290
Loc: The Wild Wild West
|
My wife's cousin went there. She said it was very competitive and expensive. For her personally, she wished she chose another law school, but this related being away from family more than the actual law school itself.
_________________________
Class of 2010.5
Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in. W. Churchill
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93306 - 05/13/11 10:02 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: backbencher]
|
backbencher
NTL Addict
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 868
Loc: Florida
|
David,
Part II.
Looking at the schools in your list you need to sort them into three categories: Fairly respectable, marginal, and "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!!!"
Obviously WVU, UND, St. Thomas, and a few others are respectable schools that are probably 3T because of the market they are in, lack of out of state reputation, etc. Some are just real small places in real small states. Others are small fish in the same towns as whales. Heck, Whittier would probably be much better known/respeted if it was in South Carolina instead of Southern California (which is the most over-run place in America for law schools!) Tulsa probably deserves to be here too.
Then you have really local schools that belong in the 3T/4T category. UDC grads do well in solo because all of their "competing" area schools are aiming at higher levels of law. Touro has a so-so local rep. (Mostly due to over-saturation again.) Thing is, those family contacts better be "super strong" because these are exclusively local market schools. These degrees on their own will carry no weight back home in Texas (or wherever home is.) The exception for you might be Texas Weselyan, whose only apparent deficiency appears to be newness. Given your location LT, this might be a good choice for you if you really can't wait. Tulsa might work in TX too.
Finally you have the "danger" zone. I have a deep-seated bias against for-profit law schools both on general principles and because they offer very low value for very high cost. IMO these exist primarily for the truly desperate who say "I have to be a lawyer and I don't care how much it costs." None of these are great, but some are real train wrecks. Elon only recently got ABA and now that is jeopardized by a serious racial discrimination lawsuit. I did not know about LaVerne's status, but I believe it. Cooley (aka America's worst law school) is constantly toying with losing it's hard won ABA by stretching and breaking the rules. Thing is, it's not just that these schools are really lousy, which they are, but the ones in ABA trouble can really bite you. If they lose ABA accrediation before you graduate you may, or may not, still be eligible to sit their state bar. But you could never be admitted elsewhere, even if your Daddy was the governor of Texas! In that case you just blew three years and $120K for a degree you can't use for anything but a wall-covering. Are you really this desperate to go to law school this Fall??? And without bar eligibility, it really doesn't matter how good your family contacts are for finding clients, now does it???
Good luck. You seem to have an iternal timeclock that is pushing you to less than wise decisions, but that's your business. But you need to sort these choices and then make some good decisions from a limited field. Here would be my real categories:
1) Decent schools no one where I practice has ever heard of;
2) Really marginal schools that no one anywhere has ever heard of, aka "Do I want to go to law school in 2011 that bad???"
3) Call up backbencher or someone else, give them half your 1L tuition money, we will kick you repeatedly in the nuts, and in the end you will have had the full 1L experience for that school while keeping half your money!
(And yes, there are 6+ schools on your list that should be "no way in Hell!" It's hard to succeed even in solo practice when other lawyers refuse to take you seriously!)
_________________________
"Audere est Facere" (To Dare is To Do)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93307 - 05/13/11 10:23 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: backbencher]
|
AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 571
|
FWIW, in the stuff about LaVerne losing its accreditation, I read that if your school is accredited when you matriculate, your degree counts as accredited when you graduate, even if the school loses its accreditation in the meantime (so, if a school lost its accreditation while you were there, you'd still be able to sit for the bar). I can't swear to how accurate this is, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
(That said - I do NOT think it's REMOTELY a good idea to go to a school that's at any risk of losing its accreditation!)
cigarman is the only poster I've ever seen suggest that it's worth applying in June to start in the same year. Everyone else on this board has consistently said it's better to wait - that it's best to apply as early in the admissions process as you can.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93334 - 05/16/11 04:56 AM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: AnnaD]
|
Legaltender
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Austin, TX
|
I was not even considering going to law school until it was mentioned in this thread to go now.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#93343 - 05/16/11 05:30 PM
Re: Going to law school after 40
[Re: Legaltender]
|
Legaltender
Junior Member
Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Austin, TX
|
Oops I said that wrong. I meant I was not considering going to law school early until it was mentioned in this thread.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
