#91319 - 08/15/10 10:10 AM
Good luck to new beginnings
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GerriP
Senior Contributor
Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 200
Loc: Alabama
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Good luck to everyone starting orientation or classes this week!
For the 1Ls, take it all in and have fun! Do what works for you and within a few weeks, you will figure that out. Don't worry about what supplement this person has, or how this person briefs their cases (or doesn't). But most of all - don't take yourself too serious, because no one else will!
For the 2 and 3Ls - welcome back to another year! I'm excited to start another chapter, knowing it's one step closer to the bar exam.
I hope everyone had a terrific summer!
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#91404 - 08/22/10 10:29 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: kittydoctor]
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TonyDigital
Contributor
Registered: 03/17/09
Posts: 50
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Thanks Gerri! I know this is a little late but I've been swamped with the move and orientation week was more like a bootcamp of reading assignments. Not the "hey, welcome and let's relax for a week" type of greeting I envisioned hehe...
Tomorrow is my first day of "real" classes and I'm very excited to get this started. Good luck to everyone else!
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#91411 - 08/23/10 01:20 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: kittydoctor]
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tonyg
I have a lot of time on my hands
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 284
Loc: Washington, D.C.
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Kittydoctor,
I had the same problem the first week of school. I decided that I only needed the basics for each class and left everything else in the locker. My guide was if my backpack was too heavy to lift with one hand, I took stuff out. Try to figure out what you really don't need to take to class and it will work itself out.
I am excited to start my last semester of law school tomorrow! 10 credits spread over four classes. I am taking Scientific Forensic Evidence, Legislative Process, Pre-trial Practice and my writing seminar class, Global Justice.
Had over 150 pages of reading for the first day and still am missing one of the textbooks. Should be fun.
To all (especially 1L's), have a great first week of school and enjoy it. It is stressful, but after the first week, only finals are worse and that gets better as you go along. I am excited to hear your stories!
_________________________
Class of 2010.5
Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in. W. Churchill
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#91413 - 08/23/10 07:18 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: GerriP]
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kittydoctor
Beyond hope
Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: West Texas
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Thanks, Tony. I will put stuff I'm not using in my locked side of the carrel. Small roller will do. The big one ripped a zipper.
Also, for those of you who said not to buy UCC or Restatements of K, my prof requires a book that has those, plus Uniform Electronic Transactions acts, et al. Title is Selections for Contracts by Farnsworth, Young, Sanger Cohen and Brooks. About $40. We have to have it with us at all times. Guess I'll put it on the pillow at bedtime.
I really had a wonderful, wonderous first day as a 1L. Four years after I started this journey. Worth it. Have fun!
_________________________
Mary
The cow is of the bovine ilk,
One end is moo, the other milk.
Ogden Nash
First veterinarian admitted to TTU!
My blog: DrinkingOutOfTheTrough.com
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#91414 - 08/23/10 08:31 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: kittydoctor]
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oldlawgirl
NTL Addict
Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 595
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Stop hauling around all of that stuff KD! Lock it up in the carrel or locker. It is just too much otherwise. (And I bet you don't open that UCC/Restatements book more than 5 times in class).
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#91415 - 08/23/10 08:33 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: oldlawgirl]
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oldlawgirl
NTL Addict
Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 595
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My best friend form law school started a LLM program in entertainment law today. For one brief moment, I was jealous. Then, I realized I am crazy for thinking I would want to go through that again. So I called her and teased her about having to buy another rolling backpack. Hehe. I am so evil.
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#91416 - 08/23/10 08:57 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: oldlawgirl]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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Our contracts prof had us buy a similar supplement (but not Farnsworth's), and we read about the UCC ALL THE TIME. I know we had at least a few common law v. UCC issues on the final. Ah, good times.... :-P
Survived what is HOPEFULLY my last first day today (bet your friend thought she'd done that already, oldlawgirl!), and finally got my schedule settled, hooray:
Evidence
Labor Law
Motions Advocacy
Local Government (taught as Colorado Government)
American Indian Law Clinic
I'm a little worried that with Clinic it's kind of ambitious (I also have 3 credits of law review/moot court and that puts me at the maximum for credits), but eh, I do better when I'm busy. And it only ends up being 2 exams, because I can write a paper for Labor Law, which I think I'm going to do.
Enjoy the beginning, 1Ls! And enjoy the beginning of the end, 3Ls! (2Ls... just hang in there!)
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#91417 - 08/23/10 10:46 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: AnnaD]
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GerriP
Senior Contributor
Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 200
Loc: Alabama
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tonydigital - I helped out with orientation this year and just my participation wore me out! The reading gets more efficient and you'll settle into a great routine quickly!
Today was my first day of class. First up - learned the professor put the wrong book on the list and everyone in class now has a return. If anyone needs Corporations by Bainbridge, please let me know quickly!
This semester I'm taking Business Organizations, Employment Law, Professional Responsibility, Constitutional Law, and ADR. I am also a teaching assistant for writing/research and on law review. Whew! It's going to be a busy, busy semester!!
My contracts professor used the Farnsworth Selections often! KD - get some post-it flags and begin tabbing now. It will help you when you study for the final. (Geeky fact - I used one color flags for merchants and a different color for non-merchants. When we went over a section in class, it got tabbed immediately).
For our 1Ls - enjoy and make the most of this year!
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#91418 - 08/23/10 10:58 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: AnnaD]
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forthguy
Beyond hope
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 1042
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Our contracts prof had us buy a similar supplement (but not Farnsworth's), and we read about the UCC ALL THE TIME. I know we had at least a few common law v. UCC issues on the final. Ah, good times....
Every now and then, distinctions between professors do pop up. In our year of Contracts, we were responsible for knowing just one UCC section, 2-207. I learned all my UCC via Bar/Bri. My prof was also ardently opposed to anything resembling the Socratic method, so he wouldn't involuntarily call on anyone. That year, the other prof teaching Contracts was a heavy UCC instructor and also an intense cold-caller. (I had her for electives later, and she generally only did that with people she was pretty sure hadn't prepared.)
Evidence
Labor Law
Motions Advocacy
Local Government (taught as Colorado Government)
American Indian Law Clinic
I'm a little worried that with Clinic it's kind of ambitious (I also have 3 credits of law review/moot court and that puts me at the maximum for credits), but eh, I do better when I'm busy. And it only ends up being 2 exams, because I can write a paper for Labor Law, which I think I'm going to do.
Without knowing details, I'd guess that Evidence is the only hardcore substantive class there. I loved Evidence, and I loved all of my advocacy classes (one of which was Evidence Advocacy). You'd know more about the load of your clinic than I; certainly the one clinic I had was a bear, but in an entirely good way. (Sort of. I completely solved my main client's issues, but without any application of law whatsoever.)
_________________________
: star 42 emit ;
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#91419 - 08/24/10 12:37 AM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: forthguy]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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Without knowing details, I'd guess that Evidence is the only hardcore substantive class there. I loved Evidence, and I loved all of my advocacy classes (one of which was Evidence Advocacy). You'd know more about the load of your clinic than I; certainly the one clinic I had was a bear, but in an entirely good way. (Sort of. I completely solved my main client's issues, but without any application of law whatsoever.)
Yeah, that's about right (about Evidence being the only hardcore substantive class); of course, I've avoided hardcore substantive classes up to this point, so I'm not going to start taking them now! :-P
No, it's not that I'm worried the classes will be qualitatively hard (except perhaps Evidence, but the prof is really great), I just don't want to get behind. For all the discussion here of how grades are based only on the exam - well, that's not true for both Clinic and Motions; so I can't just skip reading/class during a time crunch and make it up later! (Plus, how I do in clinic will affect actual real people!!) But I am excited for it all.
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#91429 - 08/25/10 04:39 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: AnnaD]
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Sartoris99
Senior Contributor
Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 111
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I'm looking at this forum for the first time in 2 weeks (Orientation + first week!) because I was falling asleep in the library doing my Civ. Pro reading. I like Torts better than I expected. Contracts Prof. cold-called me yesterday and guess what? It was fine. Fine. And I did NOT spend hours creating a brief in that format they showed us that turns a page long case into a Federal budget. Instead I used a variation of the 3-line brief Thane talks about in his book. Ok so it was more like Six lines.
Anyway, so far, so good. Just major lifestyle, and workload changes.
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#91443 - 08/26/10 09:13 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: Sartoris99]
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Sartoris99
Senior Contributor
Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 111
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Actually I looked again at the book. It's 2-4 line briefing. So. . . allright I'm doing short paragraphs. But they're taking about five mins each to write so I think it's working!
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#91463 - 08/30/10 10:42 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: Sartoris99]
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backbencher
NTL Addict
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Florida
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Yeah, that's about right (about Evidence being the only hardcore substantive class); of course, I've avoided hardcore substantive classes up to this point, so I'm not going to start taking them now!
Unlike OLG, I was enjoying a stroll down memory lane here. But then, after 18 years as a professional college student, if I didn't enjoy school I would have been long-gone before 2L! But then you have to go and mention Evidence! No doubt one of the most vital courses in law school, but for me one of the most tedious and difficult. I keep shocking myself when I review my transcript and discover I did better than I remembered (because I remember it as a very low grade. Actually, I was close to average.) I liken it to learning Russian (which I have also done): Russian verbs are super-simple to learn, as most follow some very standard and simple rules for conjugation; unfortunately its all the "irregular" verbs that you use the most! Evidence is not hard, it's all the exceptions to the rules that will drive you mad. 
AnnaD, some advice: Our professor supplied us with massive banks of short review questions and the book had some as well. (We may have been assigned a supplement of these, can't remember.) Even though it did not work for (in fairness, Evidence was a bad semester for me for outside reasons), practice, just like the LSAT, is the way to learn Evidence. Briefing the relatively few cases and underlining your book is of less use here than practice, practice, practice. ("Victim V relates the identity of his Killer K to his Priest P before he dies: is this admissable, state the rule(s).")
As for the rest, clinics to me are always dangerous. I never got to do internship or clinic, per se, but I did take the advanced version of State & Local where we were allowed to work with the city attorney and draft an actual ordinance. The danger of these courses is that when you are dealing with real issues or clients, you tend to put more time into it to the detriment of your other un-real courses. (Guess which class you will be thinking about on the way home each night?) 
KD, enjoy. Remember that I predicted the UCC would be required. I guess that's the way I was taught so I can't imagine learning it another way. (Also, the UCC remains fixed in my mind as a distinct aspect of "The Paper Chase.") I can't imagine what there is to learn in two semesters of K without the UCC? But posting in Torts class!!! Tsk, tsk. This is the "frosting" class of 1L. I can see chatting/posting/surfing in Property or Civ Pro, but Torts??? 
Mobility in law school is a universal problem. What a pity you can't get the book on Kindle or disc and just scroll it during class. (I suppose you could scan it, but that would be one horrific project on its own. Of course scan and sell to law students everywhere? Well that's a going business, until you get caught!) The best approach is lock all but one book and then you can get by with a modest PC/bookbag. After a while I got honest with myself and left everything at school I knew I would not read over night (even if I knew I needed to.) Would not work for you, but I got by with a messenger bag for my PC and a book under the arm. For weekends/study I would carry a literal book-bag and haul it to the parking garage. But here is one instance where you really need to develop your own system. I saw everything from the "legal pad and book under the arm" to the "European Grand Tour steamer trunk on wheels, with accessories!" It can even affect your schedule. I knew full-time students who would never take anything home! They would stay in the library until they had the next day read. Good for them! 
So how are those free lunches you lucky students? Now that is one part of law school I really miss! 
_________________________
"Audere est Facere" (To Dare is To Do)
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#91464 - 08/30/10 11:55 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: backbencher]
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forthguy
Beyond hope
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 1042
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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Even though it did not work for (in fairness, Evidence was a bad semester for me for outside reasons), practice, just like the LSAT, is the way to learn Evidence.
I would definitely agree with that. I took Evidence along with a companion, Evidence Advocacy, giving me 6 units of Evidence in one semester. My Evidence devoted 5 to 10 minutes of the Evidence lecture to people getting called up to argue motions in limine based on mini hypotheticals. Then, those of us in Evidence Advocacy broke into smaller recitation-like sections after the Thursday evening class for another 2 hours to argue them in small groups. My group was led by one of the San Francisco Superior Court judges, and man could she be brutal.
(Also, the UCC remains fixed in my mind as a distinct aspect of "The Paper Chase.") I can't imagine what there is to learn in two semesters of K without the UCC?
Lots and lots of common law.
As it happens, the author of "The Paper Chase" (the novel) was my Contracts professor. Didn't like the UCC; or, at least, didn't think it was worthwhile to spend class time on. Didn't like the Socratic Method. Easily my least favorite professor. I can't think of who #2 on the list is, even.
_________________________
: star 42 emit ;
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#91466 - 08/31/10 10:37 AM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: forthguy]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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I took Evidence along with a companion, Evidence Advocacy, giving me 6 units of Evidence in one semester.
That sounds like a great way to learn it. My school offers a similar thing, a combined Evidence/Trial Advocacy class. Unfortunately I didn't know this existed until registration for this semester, after I'd already taken the separate Trial Advocacy class (and you can't get credit for both). Bummer, because lord knows Trial Ad would have been a little easier if I'd really understood Evidence, or at least, hearsay (rather than getting the Reader's Digest version in a 45-minute lecture!).
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#91467 - 08/31/10 12:23 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: forthguy]
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Dutch
Senior Contributor
Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 201
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[quote=backbencher]Even though it did not work for (in fairness, Evidence was a bad semester for me for outside reasons), practice, just like the LSAT, is the way to learn Evidence.
"I would definitely agree with that. I took Evidence along with a companion, Evidence Advocacy, giving me 6 units of Evidence in one semester. My Evidence devoted 5 to 10 minutes of the Evidence lecture to people getting called up to argue motions in limine based on mini hypotheticals. Then, those of us in Evidence Advocacy broke into smaller recitation-like sections after the Thursday evening class for another 2 hours to argue them in small groups."
Alright! I don't mean to go off topic, but your post about evidence got my attention.
Of course I've not enrolled in LS yet, but am a former law enforcement officer and as such had to know some things about obtaining criminal evidence, properly handling it, and had to know some of the procedural aspects. Of course, my perspective is from past law enforcement and I may not have any idea of what you're talking about to begin with!
A couple questions if you'll humor me?
The class you took; was it in reference to criminal evidence? (I assume there are other types?)
Do the rules of evidence have any roots in common law, or do they exist due to statutory laws?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks!
Dutch
Edited by Dutch (08/31/10 12:25 PM)
_________________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. from 'V for Vendetta.'
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#91468 - 08/31/10 02:55 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: Dutch]
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tonyg
I have a lot of time on my hands
Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 284
Loc: Washington, D.C.
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Evidence is evidence, whether criminal or civil. There should only be one evidence class.
Some rules of evidence have roots in common law and each state has their own rules of evidence, but for the most part, states copy the FRE.
Good luck to you!
_________________________
Class of 2010.5
Never give in, never give in, never; never; never; never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in. W. Churchill
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#91469 - 08/31/10 04:07 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: tonyg]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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Dutch - evidence (the class) is about lawyers' use of evidence at trial. Issues of law enforcement use of evidence would probably be addressed more in Criminal Procedure (what the police can do to get evidence and when they can/can't use what they find).
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#91470 - 08/31/10 04:23 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: tonyg]
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Dutch
Senior Contributor
Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 201
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Evidence is evidence, whether criminal or civil. There should only be one evidence class.
Some rules of evidence have roots in common law and each state has their own rules of evidence, but for the most part, states copy the FRE.
Good luck to you!
Thanks tonyg!
_________________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. from 'V for Vendetta.'
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#91471 - 08/31/10 04:25 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: AnnaD]
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Dutch
Senior Contributor
Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 201
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AnnaD
trial as in discovery, motions, etc.?
or maybe whether or not it's viable?
thanks!
Dutch
_________________________
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. from 'V for Vendetta.'
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#91472 - 08/31/10 05:32 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: Dutch]
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forthguy
Beyond hope
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 1042
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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trial as in discovery, motions, etc.?
or maybe whether or not it's viable?
Well, all of that, to some degree. Most of evidence revolves around admissibility, trial objections regarding admissibility, motions (typically the motions in limine I mentioned to admit or exclude evidence), etc.
As AnnaD mentioned, rules and practice regarding hearsay evidence and its exceptions is big.
Once you get all the big rules down, you get to go into state distinctions, which is big fun. (e.g., admissions are not hearsay under the FRCP, but are admissible under an exception in the Cal. Code of Civ. Proc. Rules of privilege, and which conversations are privileged differ, etc. It's all great bar exam fodder.)
Discovery probably won't come up in an Evidence course very often, unless it's about methods of discovery and whether they're sufficient to prove reliability, but even that's probably on the outer edges. Most discovery issues will come up in civil procedure or in dedicate discovery (and more and more, e-discovery) courses.
_________________________
: star 42 emit ;
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#91474 - 08/31/10 05:58 PM
Re: Good luck to new beginnings
[Re: Dutch]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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The federal rules of evidence (and state counterparts) govern court proceedings, so what happens in court, before a fact-finder (judge/jury). They're really to determine what testimony can and can't be admitted at trial - what your witnesses are allowed to say, what kinds of materials you can introduce.
Discovery is pre-trial, and what is/isn't discoverable is governed by the rules of civil procedure. (You might well go to court to bring a motion to compel someone to hand over what you believe is discoverable, but technically discovery takes place before a trial.)
Motions can be pre-trial or during trial (or after, of course). A motion to suppress evidence because the police obtained it illegally, for instance, would (as I understand it) be made before a trial, and involves the criminal procedure rules more than the evidence rules, because it would be saying that law enforcement did something wrong in getting the evidence (I think this is correct; I haven't actually taken crim pro!). You can also make motions in limine at the opening of a trial in which you ask for evidence to be excluded for other reasons, more to do with the rules of evidence (e.g. the pictures of the dead victim should be excluded because the cause of death isn't in dispute and the images will inflame the passions of the jury, or the defendant's previous convictions should be excluded because they're irrelevant, or whatever).
(I think a motion to suppress involves constitutional problems with the state actions involved, whereas a motion to exclude involves evidentiary problems, but I could be wrong on this.)
And then there are other motions that take place throughout or after a trial (motion for directed verdict, motion for summary judgment, motion for a new trial). I don't think the rules of evidence govern these per se, because they're legal arguments, so not about what facts the jury finds, but the judge's interpretation of the law. But on the other hand, I know there are motions in which you put on witnesses, so presumably those would be governed by the rules of evidence. (I don't know what they are yet, but my Motions Advocacy professor told us we're going to argue them this semester!)
As I understand it, evidence rules govern what you can or cannot put before the fact-finder at an actual trial. They don't govern the acquisition or handling of evidence by law enforcement. But it is only the second week of the class, so others should feel free to correct me!
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