#91305 - 08/13/10 06:42 AM
Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
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fllaw
Senior Contributor
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
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I just completed a week of orientation. For the most part it was well planned and useful. We did a number of "preview" classes, mainly dealing with contracts and legal writing. They attempted to demonstrate what a full-on Socratic class is like. Being older, I found their attempts to intimidate rather comical. I have faced far worse at work 
One thing that stuck me was the constant emphasis on doing detailed case briefs. They tried to explain we should not worry about the exam that counts for 100% of the grade, but on being prepared for class, in the way they believed we should be.
I have read many discussions on this, and Delaney mentions in his book, Legal Reasoning, that being prepared for class is not the same thing as being able to write a good exam.
They even brought in a number of 2L and 3L students for Q&A. All of them followed the company line on case briefing.
Thane Messinger, has posted many messages on this board and mentions in his book, that spending all your time preparing for cold calls will lead to failure.
What do you think?
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#91306 - 08/13/10 09:59 AM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: fllaw]
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cfood2010
Senior Contributor
Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 104
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flaw,
congrats on finishing orientation!
I think their advice of "not to worry about the exam" was probably meant to mean, "don't worry about the exam NOW", and if so, I think this is very sound advice. IMO, one obstacle facing many 1L students during the first semester is their natural instinct want to learn the "answer" to a problem instead of wanting to learn the "process" of arriving at an answer. So, seriously, don't worry about the exam....at this point. I'm guessing your schedule consists of substantive classes and a legal/writing class. If your experience is like mine, then the substantive class profs are going to be almost 100% focused on teaching you how to do legal reasoning; and maybe provide a little advice on how to answer an essay. I found that only one person gave me great insight in how to structure an essay exam answer, my legal research/writing professor. Plus, I applied the "getting to maybe" book advice on top.
So,I found that my first semester legal research/writing class did a great job of enabling me to answer all my other classes' exam essay questions. But, the instructor for our class was very talented and used a drill sergeant type approach.
At some point during the semester you should see how the legal reasoning and writing come together and enable you to express your argument in writing (e.g. an essay exam answer). If you feel like your writing instructor is not up to par, then go find help elsewhere.
The "can't see the forest because of the trees" cliche is appropriate for much of the first semester...except for my Contracts class...the first month of that class was bewildering b/c it was spent discussing only the "forest", no "trees."
Just remember this, and I don't think it matters at all how much summer prep you have done, you are not expected to be able to even remotely answer an essay exam question TODAY, or even halfway through your first semester. A couple of classmates and I spent many hours at school using the whiteboards to map out written answers to practice essay questions...but this came later in the semester.
Maybe by the first of November you'll start getting a clue on how to do it...IMO, this is what makes the first semester extra stressful, the unknown.
But, if you're prepared for class each day and you make the effort to synthesize the reasoning and writing, you'll be more than fine.
CF
Edited by cfood2010 (08/13/10 10:45 AM)
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#91309 - 08/13/10 01:59 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: fllaw]
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kittydoctor
Beyond hope
Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: West Texas
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fllaw,
Another thing I learned this summer during the four week program, and I know it is frustrating, is that if you ask a question of the prof or TA, the answer always begins with, "It depends." Across the board, 100%
We teach ourselves the laws by learning rules. Profs give cases and hypos, and we have to apply the BLL we have learned. The mistake I made this summer was not being able to memorize the BLL. Do LEEWS a few weeks into the semester. Brodle told me I didn't have to do one in person if I'd worked hard on the tapes (antique.) She's correct, as on the very last tape, Miller tells us that there is more content than in person. He also, during all the tapes, says, "At this point in the live course, I would.....)
Since, to my knowledge, you haven't had a summer program like I did, wait a few weeks to get into LEEWS. It is allowed to be passed around per Miller; and my edition was sent to me by one on this board. I'll pass it on after I am done with it-after the bar.
Take care!
_________________________
Mary
The cow is of the bovine ilk,
One end is moo, the other milk.
Ogden Nash
First veterinarian admitted to TTU!
My blog: DrinkingOutOfTheTrough.com
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#91311 - 08/13/10 09:29 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: kittydoctor]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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I think one of the reasons schools emphasize briefing at orientation is that, initially, it *is* a really helpful way to learn how to read a case and break it down into its component parts, which really is something that has to be learned, and doesn't come naturally.
So I totally agree with cfood2010 that what they're telling you is what you need to be doing now, rather than what you need to do forever and ever. You don't know yet what you need to know to focus entirely on studying for the exam. Even now, though I know what exams entail, I can't really start studying for exams (as distinct from learning the material) until we've gone through enough of the semester to accumulate a critical mass of material.
(The other thing is that while I understand the point that the exam is what you're graded on, profs *do* prefer to think that there is *some* connection between what you read for class, what you do for class, and how you perform on the exam! And teaching to a class of unprepared students really sucks rocks. So of course they're going to tell you to be prepared for class. It's not that they're trying to mislead you, it's just their perspective on the experience. No prof is going to tell you to teach yourself the subject with supplements. Actually, I take that back - one prof at our school comes close! But generally, profs I know take their teaching seriously and so of course believe that being prepared and going to class help you.)
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#91313 - 08/14/10 04:30 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: AnnaD]
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oldlawgirl
NTL Addict
Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 595
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Here is the deal - no one ever flunked or got a bad grade in a course becasue they flubbed an in-class question. Of course, some profs add "participation" points (which I have never figured out since grading is supposed to be blind). And, as some of my profs did, if it was obvious you were unprepared when called on, they marked you as being absent. We had a limit on how many absences we could have before we were dropped from the course, so that is an effective tool. But, being prepared doesn't necessarily mean you are "right". You have to show the prof you read the material. And if he asks you something like "how did they reach that conclusion?" and you have no idea, you have to prepared to reply with something that shows you read the material and at least tried to think it through. Even if it is wrong. This in-class performance is a source of tremendous angst for law students. If you read it and made some notes about the big IRAC (Issue, Rule, Analysis, COnclusion) then you should be all right. And by briefing, you are forced to do that. That being said, this formal briefing stuff is a huge waste of time. You can jot it down in the margins ONCE YOU BECOME COMFORTABLE WITH IT. But, you won't get comfortable with it for at least a month unless you do a bit more fomalized briefing at the beginning. It is just a way to indoctrinate you into automatic legal analysis.
I am a fast reader and have good comprehension skills. I would ferak out my classmates by sitting on the floor outside of a classroom 20 minutes before my class and reading the assignment. Of course, if we had tons and tons of reading, I woudl do it ahead of time. But, for 30 pages or so, I liked to do it the same day so that I was fresh in my recollection. I would "margin-brief" and use underlines, a highlighter and notes in the margin to guide me through the class. If I really didn't understand the case, I would look up the brief on Lexis, Westlaw or a study guide to help me get through it. But, I did not start doing this until the end of my first semester. That is when it hit me that this long briefing process was making me crazy and taking up tons of time. And like Anna, I could not study for exams or outline until at least half way through the semester. Because, quite frnakly, you have no idea what is important until you have gotten pretty far into the material.
You will also start seeing patterns with each of your professors. I had one guy that was big on the facts of the case. He nit picked them like crazy. It was his way of knowing whether you really read the case or not. Another liked to know all the lower court rulings and the path/rulings through the appellate courts. So you had to prepare for that. But, in the beginning, you have no idea what they want. So, you overbrief and overprepare for anything. (And this stuff rarely mattered when it came to exams). Then....one wonderful day (usually in 3L) you will get called on and have the following exchange. "Ms. S., can you discuss the 14th amendment ramifications of this decision?" And you will look up from your casebook, shake you head and say "I'm not sure about that, Prof. Blowhard, I thik I'll take a pass." And he will purse his lips in annoyance and go to the person next you (who will be even more pissed at you)and the WORLD DOES NOT END. And even more telling, the rest of the class doesn't even stir when you make this pronouncement. Totally unlike how the entire class freaked out my 1L year when I responded to my Torts prof that I really had no idea what in the hell this case was about even though I read it 3 times. He just laughed and guided me through the analysis. Then he asked me how I felt about it then and I told him "better" and he laughed again. Non-trads can sometimes get away with the most amazing things in law school, once we get over our amazing tendency to be over-serious. This is the same professor that called on me after our resident gunner had gone on and on about how, if HE had been the judge in a particular case, he would have done this and he would have done that. The professor then asked me what I would have done had I had been on the panel as a Judge sitting next to Justice Gunner. I replied that if I had to serve with Justice Gunner, I would have resigned and gone into private practice. That professor loved me.
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#91314 - 08/14/10 04:36 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: oldlawgirl]
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oldlawgirl
NTL Addict
Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 595
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And Kitty doctor...............the answer is always "it depends". Get used to it.
I feel your pain, too, on not being able to memorize BLL. SO many law schools have open book exams. I rarely did. If I could have just had the damn BLL written out, I would have blazed thorugh law school. I really had memory problems with the huge amount of material. Flash cards that I prepared myself really helped. And clear, succinct outlines that I also prepared myself. I never had luck using other people's outlines, except as a guide to prepare my own. The good news is that you will be better prepared for the bar exam than the people who had nothing but open book exams. I promise.
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#91315 - 08/14/10 08:15 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: oldlawgirl]
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AnnaD
NTL Addict
Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
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The good news is that you will be better prepared for the bar exam than the people who had nothing but open book exams. I promise.
I am sadly convinced of this myself. That is, all my exams have been basically open book (Ethics didn't allow outlines, but did allow the Rules of Professional Responsibility or whatever they're called.) I am really dreading the hard-core memorization for the Bar!
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#91323 - 08/15/10 07:48 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: oldlawgirl]
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fllaw
Senior Contributor
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
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And Kitty doctor...............the answer is always "it depends". Get used to it.
I feel your pain, too, on not being able to memorize BLL. SO many law schools have open book exams. I rarely did. If I could have just had the damn BLL written out, I would have blazed thorugh law school. I really had memory problems with the huge amount of material. Flash cards that I prepared myself really helped. And clear, succinct outlines that I also prepared myself. I never had luck using other people's outlines, except as a guide to prepare my own. The good news is that you will be better prepared for the bar exam than the people who had nothing but open book exams. I promise.
AFAIK, all or our exams are closed book.
Professor Delaney suggests using iconic examples to memorize the BLL. For every cause of action he says you should have an example in your mind so it makes it easier to recall the elements.
During orientation the head of Academic Success suggested starting to outline from day one. I was surprised at this, as Thane mentions this in his book.
Since I am part time, I am doing 9 credits this semester. The problem is I work full-time and have to cram most of my school work into the weekend hours. I know being efficient with my time is crucial. The problem with case briefing, they way they want it, is a total time suck. To overcome this I am taking this approach:
1. Read syllabus for assignment.
2. Scan assigned case book pages for topic headings.
3. Read topic in Emanuel's for pages correlated to case book.
4. Create my own outline in my own words of material in Emanuel's.
5. Read and brief the case (now that I know why I am reading it)
5a. Understand where the issue/rule in case fits into outline.
6. Verify my brief in Lexis/Nexis (noting which parts were edited out in the casebook)
7. Eat cookies.
I love Lexis! Also, plan to do CALI lessons for each topic each week to practice my understanding of the substantive material.
Also, the Academic Success program is offering two workshops that meet regularly during the fall semester: one for writing and one for issue spotting and exam writing (both essay and MC).
Edited by fllaw (08/15/10 07:52 PM)
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#91329 - 08/16/10 01:32 AM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: AnnaD]
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backbencher
NTL Addict
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Florida
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I am glad everyone is enjoying "disorientation." So let me add my contrarian two-cents. 
First, the answer is not always "it depends." One of my professors was fond of saying, "when you come to a fork in the road, take it." Since he was a total prat, I didn't think much about this until later, but he was stating the same idea. Teaching law to non-lawyers has given me some useful perspective. In a recent exam I set up an essay question (hypo) that was chock full of ambiguity. Part of it dealt with whether or not a locker search was "legal." There was enough in the question that any good law student would have spent all day going both ways. 90% of my students simply decided to quote law that would support the school board and reach a finite conclusion. I am not even sure, for them, that this is the wrong approach. Each day they have to make definite decisions. But such an approach would get you a very low grade in law school. When you reach that fork in the road you do need to take it: in every direction it offers!
Here is a standard exam phrase even AnnaD can memorize: "On the other hand..." Or, if you want to sound more lawyerly, "In the alternative..." 
I tend to agree with what cfood and others have said about disorientation. IRAC is sort of like a safe "fall-back." It's kind of like telling a new player "anyone can bunt." (Which is also not entirely true.) If you keep up with your reading and do IRAC in your outline before class, you ought to be safe. At the same time, many loyal IRAC'ies have felt really frustrated when asked a question in class they can't answer, even after doing IRAC correctly. Additionally, IRAC is an almost useless skill for exams (aside from having some basic analytical skills.) 
My attitude has always been "whatever works." And I mean this two ways. If you have the time, energy, and discipline to apply any system, consistently, and you pick a quality system, you should be at least competing with the top of the class. Of course this is easier said than done. After all, some of your classmates are super-focused and high-energy in ways most of us who "have lived" can never be again, and even in some cases ways you don't want to compete with: everything from $1200 personalized cram courses for each exam to generous prescriptions for "diet pills." And yes, these are more common than you think. And I suspect that the job market is not aiding the problem.
But all of your suspicions are correct, there are a lot of paths to success, if success is defined as graduating, that do not get discussed in dis-orientation. They will not tell you that not only can you buy commercial outlines, but you can find free ones all over the net. (cfood, have you met NatalieGreen.com?) My favorites were ones from a former student at my school, who posts freebies because she hates the pointless commercialization of law school (which is why I have issues with LEEWS, Kaplan, etc. Never forget that their primary purpose is something other than helping you pass law school. $$$) and Boalt Hall (Berkely.) And, yes, if you read these outlines to yourself, skim the reading, and tweak them for your own course, you can do fairly well. 
Then there was the suggestion about learning an entire course from supplements. Here is some shocking truth: not only can you do it, sometimes you have to! Yes, friends, you read that right. As most know or have guessed, I work in higher education. Let's face it, there are a lot of bad teachers in college. In school (K-12) your teachers were at least trained in teaching (although many had shockingly little background in their subject matter!) Some may have been bad, anyways, but most had at least adequate ability. In college it's different. Some graduate majors, especially those that expect you to teach with the degree (what else do you do with a Philosophy or Sociology Ph.D.?) actually offer courses, usually one course, in "Teaching _____ at the college level." It's not much, but it is all most of us ever get. Now get this: there is no such course in law school! None. Ever wondered how you become a law school professor? You graduate #1 or #2 from a 1T (top 50) law school, and preferably a T14, you are editor of law review, get admitted to the Order of the Coif (something they don't even bother telling us average folks about), and then go off for 4-6 years and clerk for a Circuit Judge or join a top 10 law firm (preferably both.) A tour as a political appointee in the Justice Department or as legal staff to a congressional committee will work nicely as well. Then back to school. No further training required. What amazes me about law school is not how many terrible teachers there are, but actually how many good ones happen despite the odds! 
So back to the point. You are in Civ Pro, or Property, or Evidence, and somewhere during the term you realize you are learning nothing in class. The professor is talking but it is patently apparent it is solely for his/her benefit as it is readily apparent that this person (someone quote me here) "could not teach starving wolves to eat fresh-killed meat." So there is no real teaching & learning but there will be an exam. What do you do? You buy a good supplement (treatise, horn book, nutshell, etc.), not just an outline, and then you teach yourself the subject. Sound crazy? I came to this after an 1L semester of disappointing grades and the realization, looking at my own evals, that I was a better teacher than many of these people. So I DIY'ed several courses. And the best time to do it is actually in class. Tune out the drone and read the same subject presented in a concise and easy to understand. Imagine my happiness when I realized Eire RR could be condensed into one clear paragraph and that it was not the Byzantine mystery the blowhard at the lectern had made it out to be. 
Now, if this sounds wrong to anyone, let me give you a few caveats. First, I did not do this with every, or even most, classes. It's inadvisable in advanced electives, especially with very few students. Also, there are good professors, even great ones, where you can certainly follow the rules and make your own outline. Secondly, all appearances to the contrary, law school is graduate education. You know what that means? In any academic program (other than law, medicine, and a few others) you would spend 90% of your time educating yourself. Reading assignments, doing research, writing papers. At Oxford, even as an undergrad, your "class" time would be exactly one hour a week. So the truth is, by grad school, you should be able to learn on your own. And, sadly, you may have to. And this goes double for adjuncts. Often they have a lot of real lawyering knowledge, which is good, and can even be quite entertaining. But teaching? I can remember two who were a special type of awful. I don't say this to frighten you, but if you make it through law school with 30 good to great professors, you would be extremely lucky.
Which brings us back to the point: there are many ways to do law school, some better than others. But there is no one right way, no matter what the law school, the hand-picked 2Ls and 3Ls (I loved that "company line" statement; mine were almost like cultists), your study system, or even wise veterans and their books say. Even if you try to play it straight, there will be that semester full of personal crisis, or that professor who can't teach match-lighting to pyromaniacs, or that 3L job that will lead to full-time employment after graduation, but only if you can miss 50% of your classes. Trust me, it happens. Especially for those of you with children or jobs (you're OK here KD), it is really important to have Plan B for when Plan A (called the "right way") goes completely to hell! 
While I am on a roll, let me blow away another myth of "dis-orientation." Unless you are really not paying attention, by now it should be clear that law school does very little to teach you how to be a lawyer (it ain't med school!) Consider this: In law school you are expected, or at least instructed, to painstakenly dissect cases, analyze them, outline them, and possibly memorize them (for those "bar-like" closed-book exams.) The bar is even worse, essentially an exercise in memory exercises. And then in practice? You sit in an office with every resource you need to research an issue or file a document right at your fingertips. Explore Westlaw and Lexis a little. There are like a million "cheat" resources out there for working attorneys (and clever law students) like ALRs and on-line treatises. And here's the rub: In your actual career no one will expect you to IRAC a case or file a motion blind off what you can remember or what you wrote on a cheat sheet (or outline, as polite people call them.) Want proof? Wait 10 or 20 years. Some of those people who made law review and class honors are still clerking for judges or "following their dream" (code for running a goat farm) while the slacker in the back of class who played Farmville and Minesweeper for three years is a million-dollar partner of his/her own firm or running for high political office. (Actually, really terrible grades seem to aid one with the latter.) There is even a philosophy which I witnessed, but did not practice, of spending your entire law school career networking and schmoozing (which are career skills here) yourself into a good job even if you have rather mediocre grades. Sadly, it works. I had one colleague, whose two major life activities were partying and golf, who putted his way, literally, into a small specialty firm, even as the economy imploded. By 3L he barely showed up for class once every two or three weeks. 
Please, I am not encouraging anyone to fall off the chosen path. If you can do law school straight and narrow, please do so. But if that doesn't work, realize there are options. And also realize the rather extreme detachment between academic law and real law (hence why I remain a committed academic; I would likely get eaten in a courtroom.) Fflaw, you have some real potential since you seem to have already developed suspicions early. For me, at least, I found law school actually worked best, and was the most fun, if you think of it as a game (admittedly one with very real-world outcomes.) You know, now that I think about it, I could write my own law school guide for "the rest of us." I wonder if Thane would file copyright claims if I called it "Backbencher's 'Other' Guide to Law School: Getting In, Getting Out, and Getting Away with It!" 
(I really wasn't this bad. But working full-time and school full-time made me make some compromises. I aced the classes I could or that I really enjoyed, and have the awards to prove it, and in some I just conceded that I didn't have the time to beat the curve. It happens.)
Anyway, enjoy dis-orientation. As KD has stated you will eat well, get loads of free stuff, and enough basic skills to carry you to where you can start doing it your own way. Strangely enough you can succeed, depending on how you want to define that, by IRACing all the way to graduation (yes, some people do this) or by making a killing in video poker during class (people also do this.) So have fun, remain flexible, and remember that you will never have enough time to do it all the way you planned. Now will somebody please pass the free pizza?
_________________________
"Audere est Facere" (To Dare is To Do)
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#91334 - 08/16/10 05:27 AM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: backbencher]
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fllaw
Senior Contributor
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
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BB, thank you for the extended rant dissertation on law school, Getting In and Getting Out and Getting Away with It.
I am old enough to be very suspicious of the company line. While I have never worked in academia, I have spent enough time as a victim student to by cynical about the company line. Same way at work, I have an extremely fine-tuned BS detector. People who try to misdirect or mislead set off all the alarms.
If is funny that you mention hand picked in reference to the 2L and 3L students who are selected for the Q&A sessions. During Entering Students Day the school allowed some non-indoctrinated upperclassmen to mingle with the crowd. They all gave advice about using supplements, of whatever kind, to succeed.
To some degree it looks like disorientation, as you call it, is geared toward recent grads who may have spent too much time on partying extracurricular activities.
Over on another board, TLS, there are a number of articles by students who claim to have done very well in LS. Their advice is very different than the company line. In fact, it mirrors, in many cases, the advice given by Thane, Atticus and others.
As a contrarian, I plan to use whatever tools are needed to learn within the available time. The final is 100% of the grade. The exam is anonymous. At the time the prof grades the exams she will not know who followed the company line and who can write an essay in a lawyerly manner.
One thing that seems to be generally accepted is that you should do your own outline. That creating the outline is more important than the end product. That is, it is a learning tool. So I am working from day 1 to do this.
Thanks again for your insights and wisdom!
Regards,
Howard
Edited by fllaw (08/16/10 05:28 AM)
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#91336 - 08/16/10 01:51 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: fllaw]
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frassers
Contributor
Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Ohio
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In fact, it mirrors, in many cases, the advice given by Thane, Atticus and others.
Okay, I’m going to come out and say it…Atticus can kiss my ass. The summer I was a 0L and working my way through the (ridiculously long) list of summer reading materials he recommended in PLSII, I dared to post a question on his Yahoo group questioning the effectiveness of the reading. In other words, I was reading entirely out of context and in huge volume. I couldn’t retain anything…it was a blur. So, I questioned it. He basically tore me a new one and told me that I might as well drop out before I even got started because he predicted I would fail out anyway. Fast forward 2 years…I’m graduating a semester early, at least cum laude (unless I screw up my last semester), graded onto Law Review (with a publication offer), and 4 CALI awards.
So, I say to all, take all this “professional” advice with a grain of salt. As people have said here over and over…find what works best for you. There is no one right answer. Also, don’t get discouraged by your first semester grades, it takes some longer to figure out what works best and you won’t likely know it until after you’ve gone through one round of exams. Try to stay positive and when feeling overwhelmed take a break, watch something mindless on TV, & remind yourselves that YOU CAN DO THIS!
Best of luck to all the 1Ls!!
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#91346 - 08/17/10 04:01 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: AnnaD]
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frassers
Contributor
Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Ohio
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:o* (mwah) back at you Anna!
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#91352 - 08/19/10 05:09 AM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: frassers]
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fllaw
Senior Contributor
Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
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***
So, I say to all, take all this “professional” advice with a grain of salt. As people have said here over and over…find what works best for you. There is no one right answer. Also, don’t get discouraged by your first semester grades, it takes some longer to figure out what works best and you won’t likely know it until after you’ve gone through one round of exams.
***
One of the reasons noobs are anxious for sound advice is so that we don't necessarily have be "discouraged by your first semester grades" and then, facing doubt, pursue counter-productive behaviors. It may be that you did not find the PLSII methodology useful, but it does not mean it offers no merit.
Intuitively, I agree with you assessment. But I did find some of his insights helpful, and I also found some of Thane's advice very helpful. While your insult toward the author is fine, it still does help those who are trying to figure out what is real, what is less real and what is false.
I realize that each of us has to walk our own path. It helps to look at those ahead to avoid the big traps and detours that lead nowhere.
Regards,
Howard
Edited by fllaw (08/19/10 05:10 AM)
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#91367 - 08/19/10 08:07 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: fllaw]
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frassers
Contributor
Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 69
Loc: Ohio
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The sad truth is that the great majority will be disappointed…it’s just a fact that the standard 1L curve forces the majority of the class into a B and thus WAY outside the top 10-15% of the class. It’s reality. The GPAs in my class are tightly packed. In other words a 3.4+ = top 15% and a 3.2 = top 30% (we have a B- curve). The point I was trying to make is that we all learn the material differently, especially those of us who are of a certain age and don’t have the energy or freedom (e.g., due to family obligations) to study/prep for class 12+ hours a day unlike the average 23 year old traditional student (and it’s a fact that the 4.0s in my class do work this hard).
In my opinion, if you find yourself disappointed with your initial grades you MUST change your study habits. It may mean that it was your original plan that was in fact counter-productive. Not everyone will succeed at mastering law school exams (especially if the majority of your exams are closed book like mine were). Many of those people will not be back for a 2nd year. My point is that I don’t think it’s wise to follow professional advice to the letter, but to use it as a guide in developing an individualized study plan that works best for you.
My insult to the author is a result of me having posed what I thought to be a reasonable question about the utility of his proposed methods and having received what I considered to be a vicious and humiliatingly cruel response. It was unnecessary and demoralizing. It made me seriously question myself (as it was intended to do), but I stuck with it to great personal success. I credit what I did in preparation for class, papers, and exams for my achievements, and not because I read every published E&E etc. prior to starting school. Remember…grain of salt.
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#91515 - 09/06/10 05:57 PM
Re: Orientation: Thoughts and Comments
[Re: frassers]
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ThaneJMessinger
Senior Contributor
Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
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In fact, it mirrors, in many cases, the advice given by Thane, Atticus and others. Okay, I’m going to come out and say it…Atticus can kiss my ass. The summer I was a 0L and working my way through the (ridiculously long) list of summer reading materials he recommended in PLSII, I dared to post a question on his Yahoo group questioning the effectiveness of the reading. In other words, I was reading entirely out of context and in huge volume. I couldn’t retain anything…it was a blur. So, I questioned it. He basically tore me a new one and told me that I might as well drop out before I even got started because he predicted I would fail out anyway. Fast forward 2 years…I’m graduating a semester early, at least cum laude (unless I screw up my last semester), graded onto Law Review (with a publication offer), and 4 CALI awards.
Aloha, frassers & All -
As someone who's known, worked with (and fallen out with) Atticus, yes, he can be a piece of work. = : )
To all, I wouldn't discount his take, not least because his approach is, paradoxically, best understood by the non-traditional student. What I've seen, very much third hand, is a tiny minority that takes his advice and runs with it. They are usually at the very top. Most take it and then, for a variety of reasons, reject it. I suspect, however, that even as rejected it still helped. This, in fact, was one reason I decided, reluctantly, to jump into the fray, as I was long critical of his all-or-nothing approach.
In any event, congratulations! It's good to tell someone what to kiss, yes? = : )
(And there's something very funny, or masochistic, in my stepping to his defense, sort of, as he often treats me about as well as he treated you.)
Thane.
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