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#90858 - 06/23/10 06:35 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
As part of my pre-law reading, I came across this book, which the author wanted to title "Thinking Like a Judge."

The Legal Analyst: A Toolkit for Thinking about the Law

Ward Farnsworth

Ward Farnsworth, who clerked for both Judge Richard A. Posner and Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, is professor of law and Nancy Barton Scholar at the Boston University School of Law. He is the coauthor of Torts: Cases and Questions.

 Quote:
There are two kinds of knowledge law school teaches: legal rules on the one hand, and tools for thinking about legal problems on the other. Although the tools are far more interesting and useful than the rules, they tend to be neglected in favor of other aspects of the curriculum. In The Legal Analyst, Ward Farnsworth brings together in one place all of the most powerful of those tools for thinking about law.

From classic ideas in game theory such as the “Prisoner’s Dilemma” and the “Stag Hunt” to psychological principles such as hindsight bias and framing effects, from ideas in jurisprudence such as the slippery slope to more than two dozen other such principles, Farnsworth’s guide leads readers through the fascinating world of legal thought. Each chapter introduces a single tool and shows how it can be used to solve different types of problems. The explanations are written in clear, lively language and illustrated with a wide range of examples.

Source: Amazon.com

-Paperback: 326 pages
-Publisher: University Of Chicago Press (June 15, 2007)
-Language: English
-ISBN-10: 0226238350
-ISBN-13: 978-0226238357


Edited by fllaw (06/23/10 06:37 AM)

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#90902 - 06/25/10 07:09 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: Sartoris99]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: Sartoris99
Now I'm starting to think my previous post seems too arrogant, though I do believe what I was saying. I wanted to add that I do totally appreciate Anna's point that anything that seems to present itslef as a "one-size-fits-all" sort of guide to doing well, is probably not going to actually work for everyone. I guess I just don't think it's because we're all different as much as it is because formulaic approaches can never anticipate every need or situation. Anyway, I didn't mean to come off quite so sourly as I probably did.


Sartoris -

I saw this in another forum and thought of your comments . . .

You tell me to "scan a few pages of his book" WTF is that supposed to prove even if I did? That someone has an opinion on it and put it on paper?

This when I recommended...gasp...one of Lund's books. Ah, would that there be any qualitative differences betwixt the squirrels and biglaw partners.

= : )

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#90904 - 06/25/10 08:04 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
Thane,

You are one brave guy. I was reading the "conversation" you initiated over at TLS. It is fascinating to see the resistance to the standard advice of "be happy, don't worry, your professor will teach you everything"! I am not sure how much of what goes on over there is psychosis or some kind of mind game.

Regards,
Howard

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#90907 - 06/25/10 08:43 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: fllaw
Thane,

You are one brave guy. I was reading the "conversation" you initiated over at TLS. It is fascinating to see the resistance to the standard advice of "be happy, don't worry, your professor will teach you everything"! I am not sure how much of what goes on over there is psychosis or some kind of mind game.

Regards,
Howard



Brave? I thought this was fun. = : )

You're quite right as to the mind games, etc. That's one reason this becomes so awful, for so many. The pressures are rather great. The good news is that nontrads are much better placed to recognize these silly goings-on, and to let much of it slide past.

It is indeed fascinating,

Spock out.

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#90911 - 06/25/10 10:19 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
NewLawDad Offline
Member


Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 14
Loc: California
Thane and others with experience,

Might you be so kind as to elaborate on what the "mind games" are which you refer to? Although it sounds like they are a big problem for students, I sense there may be some amusing stories and definitely useful advice out there to be had. \:\)
_________________________
NewLawDad

"Everyday life is a preoccupation with salvation."
~Emmanuel Levinas (Time & the Other)

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#90912 - 06/26/10 02:23 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: NewLawDad]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: NewLawDad
Thane and others with experience,

Might you be so kind as to elaborate on what the "mind games" are which you refer to? Although it sounds like they are a big problem for students, I sense there may be some amusing stories and definitely useful advice out there to be had. \:\)


NLD & All -

Here's a fun one, which, I must admit, is getting tiresome even for me: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=121531

I'd be curious about your reaction.

Also, my perspective might not be nearly as useful as those who are currently in. We've all a few war stories, I suspect, but I'd be very curious about just how different (or the same) everyone's experience is. (Mind games referring to things like statements intended to confuse, or embarrass, or browbeat, or self-aggrandize, or such lovely things as altering or destroying important documents (which is of course changing with the advent of electronic means).

Thane.

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#90914 - 06/26/10 11:52 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
AnnaD Online   content
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
If we're talking about fellow students, I'm very lucky - people at my school don't play mind games, are very collegial, and share materials rather than alter/destroy. (In 1L Legal Research, when they made us do the obligatory "book" research of statutes - which I bombed, and I've had to teach myself how statutes work since then, but that's another issue - everyone converged in the copy room and made copies of the relevant material for each other.)

I think law school helps people play mind games with themselves - I'm currently applying for clerkships and one of my classmates (ranked #1 in the class, curse his eyes), who is also a summer associate at the same firm as I, has already had interviews with judges I applied to and have heard nothing from. So there is actual competition (especially since this is a relatively small legal market), and dealing with the competition can be kind of sucky - internally, in one's own psyche.

But I don't know a single person at my school who's tried to mislead, confuse, or browbeat anyone, or self-aggrandize, or sabotage anyone in any way. That's just not how it rolls in Boulder. (Whenever I read threads on places like TLS, Above the Law, or, god forbid, auto-admit, I think: who the hell are these people??)

(Though to be honest, I thought the TLS thread cited above was kind of funny. The democracy of the internet! But one of my favorite online spaces is the academics_anon community on live journal, which is a masterpiece of snark.)

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#90915 - 06/26/10 02:29 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
If we're talking about fellow students, I'm very lucky - people at my school don't play mind games, are very collegial, and share materials rather than alter/destroy. (In 1L Legal Research, when they made us do the obligatory "book" research of statutes - which I bombed, and I've had to teach myself how statutes work since then, but that's another issue - everyone converged in the copy room and made copies of the relevant material for each other.)

I think law school helps people play mind games with themselves - I'm currently applying for clerkships and one of my classmates (ranked #1 in the class, curse his eyes), who is also a summer associate at the same firm as I, has already had interviews with judges I applied to and have heard nothing from. So there is actual competition (especially since this is a relatively small legal market), and dealing with the competition can be kind of sucky - internally, in one's own psyche.

But I don't know a single person at my school who's tried to mislead, confuse, or browbeat anyone, or self-aggrandize, or sabotage anyone in any way. That's just not how it rolls in Boulder. (Whenever I read threads on places like TLS, Above the Law, or, god forbid, auto-admit, I think: who the hell are these people??)

(Though to be honest, I thought the TLS thread cited above was kind of funny. The democracy of the internet! But one of my favorite online spaces is the academics_anon community on live journal, which is a masterpiece of snark.)


Anna & All -

Quite right, and law school does tend to shake itself out with groups that are more or less in competition with each other. Happily, and sometimes unwisely, nontrads are seen generally as out of the mainstream, and thus as less to be concerned about. It is a lovely thing when someone good sneaks up from "behind," which happens not infrequently.

Too, some law schools are MUCH more competitive as a matter of school culture, primarily dependent upon the degree to which graduates are exposed to the winds of competition. So schools that have a known and fairly stable "clientele," such as the very top or in places like Vermont or Hawaii, face a generaly more hospitable environment. And, of course, the job market has much to do with this.

Best of luck, Anna, with the clerkships,

Thane.

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#90919 - 06/26/10 09:20 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
NewLawDad Offline
Member


Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 14
Loc: California
Here are my initial thoughts regarding the posts (those linked and others I have come across). It definitely seems filled with the self aggrandizing type. Of course, the real problem goes much further than the individuals whipping out their LSAT scores and acceptance letters to measure each other. The very title of the site is like a flame drawing in all the moths.
Being relatively new to my commitment to becoming the best lawyer I can be, I never gave much thought to the patriarchal mindset still expressing itself in law school. My experiences in grad school, as a Philosophy student, were far different, even among those with radically opposed views. I am curious whether this is heightened by competition for top class rankings from those not interested in big money. Any thoughts?
_________________________
NewLawDad

"Everyday life is a preoccupation with salvation."
~Emmanuel Levinas (Time & the Other)

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#90921 - 06/26/10 10:58 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: NewLawDad]
Still Cougar Offline
NTL Addict


Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 817
Loc: Houston, TX
NewLawDad,

I am five years out of law school and it was, for me, a microcosm of society in general. You will have your jerks, your academics, your gunners, your slackers, your middle-of-the-road folks, your older students, and your just out of college students.

The key to law school, in my view, is to realize that you are competing with yourself. Yes, there is a curve and yes you will be judged comparatively, but you can never know how much or how little someone else is studying or what they are doing. You can only know how much or how little effort YOU are putting into things.

As a somewhat older student who had worked, been through a divorce, and had some life experience behind me, I was able to circumvent the competitiveness of the law school atmosphere. I knew from past experience, that law school was not life or death. I had a frame of reference for realizing that I didn't need to freak out about everything.

This is not to say it is not stressful. It is, beyond anything you have ever done. However, if you really want to do it, it will be (to borrow from the Peace Corps) the toughest job you will ever love.

In a nutshell, I guess what I am saying is that, at the end of the day, it just doesn't matter what mindset is going on at the school or what kind of atmosphere there is. It matters what you choose to do since you can only control yourself and your actions.
_________________________
Counselor squared:
UH Law/Bar Passage: May 2005
M.A. Counseling Psychology: 2011
Passed National Counselor Examination (NCE): 2011

The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears, or the sea.


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#90922 - 06/27/10 01:19 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: Still Cougar]
cfood2010 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 104
I read the following book the summer before law school and it provided with with a wealth of practical methods (based on scientific research) for learning in law school.

"Expert Learning for Law Students"

it's available from all the major online sites and many law schools suggest this as a summer read and use this book for their academic learning programs (usually offered spring semester and required for students who performed below a certain level).

Here is a link to its table of contents:
http://www.cap-press.com/pdf/1810.pdf

It help me on several levels, first it gave me a game plan (other than "just study all the time"; it defines the word "study").

Second, it explained that "studying" in law school is different than most other disciplines because it requires an aggressive, critical approach to learning. You'll begin to fully appreciate this around the first couple of weeks in October.

Finally, IMO, there is nothing that can "prepare" you for your first semester. IMO, in order to succeed at the highest academic level, it takes some inner-strength and motivation that can't be taught.

But, this book gave me a great strategy and backed it up with plenty of scientific research.

CF

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#90926 - 06/27/10 11:18 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: cfood2010]
Sartoris99 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 111
Well this doesn't engage the issues at hand really but fwiw I abhore TLS. I migrated here because I found TLS so completely awful, and devoid of any mature perspective.
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#90928 - 06/27/10 05:57 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: cfood2010]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: cfood2010
...
Second, it explained that "studying" in law school is different than most other disciplines because it requires an aggressive, critical approach to learning. You'll begin to fully appreciate this around the first couple of weeks in October.

Finally, IMO, there is nothing that can "prepare" you for your first semester. IMO, in order to succeed at the highest academic level, it takes some inner-strength and motivation that can't be taught...
CF


Thanks for the reference. I am working through the CD version of LEEWS and based on what Thane and others have said it gives a pretty good idea about what "thinking like a lawyer" means. Miller packs in so much information, I am going to have to go through the eight hours of lectures again!

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#90929 - 06/27/10 06:00 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: Sartoris99]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: Sartoris99
Well this doesn't engage the issues at hand really but fwiw I abhore TLS. I migrated here because I found TLS so completely awful, and devoid of any mature perspective.


But it is amusing. I especially love the threads where the youngsters fret about not being seen with the dreaded "rolly bag" because they would rather break their backs than look dorky!

Overall it is a fun place, if you don't take them seriously.

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#90930 - 06/27/10 07:01 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: fllaw

Thanks for the reference. I am working through the CD version of LEEWS and based on what Thane and others have said it gives a pretty good idea about what "thinking like a lawyer" means. Miller packs in so much information, I am going to have to go through the eight hours of lectures again!



This is exactly right. It's better to use a handful of references well than a lot of references poorly (or not at all, which is what usually happens).

As to TLS, it's both amusing and very, very sad. Aside from the posturing silliness, students are being misled by any number of forces, and destined, mostly, for needless,than they would otherwise have to for the same result. (This, by the way, is where I've seen nontrads pull ahead. Not to make too much of the tortoise-and-the-hare analogy, but wasted effort is absolutely the biggest killer of grades in law school. Come to think of it, it's less tortoise-hare than it is simply knowing where and how not to waste energy.)

Thane.

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#90931 - 06/27/10 09:18 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
cfood2010 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 104
 Originally Posted By: ThaneJMessinger


. . . but wasted effort is absolutely the biggest killer of grades in law school. . . it's less tortoise-hare than it is simply knowing where and how not to waste energy.)

Thane.


Good point. However, during my first semester, I noticed that my "learning" strategies started to vary amongst my classes as the semester wore on, which involved some trial and error fitted to each class.

That being said, some of the best advice I received which I followed blindly (and it worked IMO) was:

One, go to every class and take great notes as to "what the professor expects from the students."

And two, always be determining what it is you don't know, and then go "know" it. Many students get behind because they miss or do not fully "flush out" an issue, e.g., "I didn't even know that was an issue!" So always be determining what are the issues, then go learn the law which applies to an issue, and then apply it. Your casebook's table of contents will provide you the major issues, and a few sub-issues; the hard work is determining what issues the cases are resolving.

anyway, that was my experience.

CF






Edited by cfood2010 (06/27/10 09:21 PM)

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#90932 - 06/27/10 09:28 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
cfood2010 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 104
 Originally Posted By: fllaw


I especially love the threads where the youngsters fret about not being seen with the dreaded "rolly bag" because they would rather break their backs than look dorky!


That's funny...but, my law school has great lockers available for students...some schools don't, so I imagine the rolly bags are a necessity.

Before I transferred, my first year was at a law school in D.C and most students had these rolly bags, including myself. Since an overwhelming majority of the students did not have a car and used the metro, the rolly bags were indispensable, especially for first year students (some of the few students who had cars used their cars as a locker of sorts)....we referred to the rolly bags as "pets."

That being said, my internships have always required me to be in court, and most lawyers involved in a trial have "rolly bags."

CF


Edited by cfood2010 (06/27/10 09:38 PM)

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#90934 - 06/28/10 05:07 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: cfood2010]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: cfood2010
 Originally Posted By: fllaw


I especially love the threads where the youngsters fret about not being seen with the dreaded "rolly bag" because they would rather break their backs than look dorky!


That's funny...but, my law school has great lockers available for students...some schools don't, so I imagine the rolly bags are a necessity.

Before I transferred, my first year was at a law school in D.C and most students had these rolly bags, including myself. Since an overwhelming majority of the students did not have a car and used the metro, the rolly bags were indispensable, especially for first year students (some of the few students who had cars used their cars as a locker of sorts)....we referred to the rolly bags as "pets."

That being said, my internships have always required me to be in court, and most lawyers involved in a trial have "rolly bags."

CF


What I thought was so funny, and so sad, was that these folks spend significant time worrying about "not being seen with the wrong bag."

There are many things to be concerned about in life; however, being seen with a "rolly bag" is not one of them.

Regards,
Howard

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#90976 - 07/01/10 06:45 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
I find this advice from Professor John Delaney very important:
 Quote:
Is it true that students who prepare carefully and do very well in class recitation sometimes do not do well on the exams? If so, what is the reason for this contradiction?

Yes and it happens more than occasionally. The chief reason, I believe, is that such students do not understand the differences between the case skills that you need to excel in class and the mostly different skills you need to excel on law school exams (see Exam, pp. 2, 4). To illustrate and as noted, the elaborated, even discursive, writing that is typical of many appellate opinions sharply contrasts with the direct and concise writing that you need for many or even most exam arguments. A second reason in my experience is the varying skill levels among students in tracking the dense fact pattern. Some students easily track the dense facts and identify and decode the various legal conflicts and resulting issues. Other students find it difficult to do so, often, I believe, because of failure to practice during the semester. But what is clear is that this tracking skill is hardly genetic. It can be learned, practiced and mastered by relentless practice during the semester.


 Quote:
Should I prepare for the first year before actually beginning?

Definitely. Do as much as you can, but do it smart. You'll be pleased later. As noted above, see Planet Law School II by Atticus Falcon for numerous specific recommendations as to how to do this most efficiently and effectively. Very impressively, he has ploughed through the great mass of materials for beginning students and evaluated their sharply varying levels of usefulness. Follow the detailed schedule that is appropriate for you.


More advice is available at:
FAQ About Preparing for the Law School Exams

A law professor for thirty years, John Delaney taught criminal law, advanced criminal law, comparative criminal law, international criminal law, and other courses to law school students and students in masters and doctoral degree programs at the New York University School of Law.

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#90996 - 07/06/10 04:29 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
ghdfans2010 Offline
Junior Member


Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 3
Wow, OL prep and you get it! This should be mandatory reading.
I have learnt so much from this post,although I am not a student yet!
_________________________
GHDcheap ghd

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#90998 - 07/06/10 01:14 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ghdfans2010]
cfood2010 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 104
Speaking of studying techniques for law school exams, I'm studying for one right now; my intellectual property final is on July 14th.

Which reminds me, that is another option 0Ls should consider, the opportunity to take a class or two during the summer after your 1L and 2L years.

CF

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#90999 - 07/06/10 06:22 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: cfood2010]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: cfood2010
Speaking of studying techniques for law school exams, I'm studying for one right now; my intellectual property final is on July 14th.

Which reminds me, that is another option 0Ls should consider, the opportunity to take a class or two during the summer after your 1L and 2L years.

CF


I am going PT so summer school is pretty much a requirement if you want to finish in 4 years.

Have you done LEEWS? If not, take a look. So many people recommend it. I am sure there are many successful strategies to exam excellence. As Thane mentioned, the key is to choose one and use it. Miller presents a massive amount of information. I am going to spend the rest of my time before school starts working with the hypos in his course. The prime goal is to grasp, as much as possible, the concept of "lawyerly thinking."

Regards,
Howard

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#91264 - 08/08/10 07:05 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
I found some very helpful information at the Law School Academic Support Blog. For example there is a post called Non-traditional students and exam study that provides guidance for those with families during exam preparation. Non-traditional Study Guide

Check it out. I think the information is reasonable and useful.

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#91420 - 08/24/10 06:48 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: GerriP]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: GerriP

***

For instance, my Contracts professor wanted to know finite details about facts of the case. He purposefully does that so people will not rely on the commercial outlines. 2-3 sentences in my notes about a case would not be sufficient for that class.

***


My contracts professor is the same. As a part-time student / full-time employee I have limited time to do school work -- mainly the weekend.

I find preparing detail briefs of contract cases very time consuming with very little ROI. The professor tells us the exam is 100% of the grade. By clever deduction I conclude that class participation, as in knowing every finite detail of a case, does nothing to help me on the exam.

My fellow students have concluded the same in only two weeks of LS. We all realize that doing this kind of detail class prep is only so you don't look awkward in class. It does not teach you the law and how to apply it. It just seems like some kind of ritualized hazing that law professors have passed on to students who later become law professors.

So, how did you actually study for this type of class while at the same time memorizing all the finite details. Oh yes, this professor does not want you to read your brief with all the finite details, he wants you to stand and recite from memory the entire case. This is insane!

Regards,

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#91424 - 08/24/10 03:23 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
grannylaw Offline
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Huntington Beach, CA
My contracts professor was the professor from hell! We spent the first 6 weeks discussing Hamer v. Sidway. Yes, 6 weeks. We spent the final 2 weeks of the year long class discussing Hamer v. Sidway.

He would give us a quiz at the beginning of every class --- yes, a quiz, including a quiz on the first day of class. Once, one of the questions was "in the footnote of pg. ___, the judges discuss what?" But my absolute favorite: "I disagreed with the Court's holding on this case, why?" How in the heck do I know why he disagreed? For our final one of the questions was "Although we have not discussed agency law, under agency law, how would this case be determined." Honestly, I had no clue as to what he was talking about. The test was multiple guess, points off for wrong answers, and if you disagreed with the selections offered, you could write an essay and if you convinced him, then he would throw out the answer he thought was right and use yours -- meaning everyone else in the class got points of for their response.
_________________________
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
~ Mark Twain

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