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#90803 - 06/17/10 06:35 AM Study Techniques: Advice and Comments
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
Now that 1L year is only two months away for many of us, I would like opinions on effective study techniques. Thane Messinger, author of Law School Getting In, Getting Good, Getting the Gold has offered advice on doing well. I ran across a student on another site that offered his experience:

 Quote:
Before 1L, I read the “LEEWS” primer and “Law School: Getting In, Getting Good, Getting the Gold” by Thane Messinger. Some of the advice in the books seemed crazy at the time, but I followed them both and ended up in the top 10% of the class after first year. Also, I think I spent a lot less time studying than most. Here is a basic summary:

1. Before classes begin, buy a commercial outline for each class (I recommend Emanuel). You will use these as sort of a textbook for the class.

2. When preparing for class, first read the syllabus and see what subject matter the professor will be going over that day. Quickly skim through the assigned pages in your casebook and jot down some of the main headings. Locate this subject matter in your commercial outline and read it thoroughly.

3. Use the commercial outline to prepare an outline for the material you will be going over in the next class. Outlines should be started the first week of class and much of your study time should be spent working on and refining it.

4. After preparing your outline, quickly read/scan the assigned cases. Do not worry much about the facts but see why the case was put in the book and make sure that relevant piece of law is in your outline. If your professor uses the Socratic Method and you are worried about getting called on, summarize each case in 2-4 sentences in your notes. However, if you do the work above, you should be able to handle anything the professor throws at you.

5. During class, do NOT take any notes. Especially do not write down other students comments or tangents the professor might go off on in answering other students questions. Your time in class should be spent listening to the professor and perfecting your outline.

6. After your have gone over a full unit in class (such as negligence), get your hands on every old exam/hypos you can find and practice writing essays using the LEEWS method. (I also recommend the Explanation and Examples Series and CALI Lessons)

7. At the end of the semester, while other students are stressing out over making their outlines, you will have a refined 20-30 page outline filled with everything you need for the exam. During the two weeks before finals, make an “attack outline” where you narrow your 20-30 page outline down to 2-3 pages of main points of law. Whether the exam is closed or open book, memorize the attack outline completely to either trigger your memory if the exam is closed book or to know where to look if the exam is open book.


Source: MVB99 on TLS Thread on Law School Confidential Briefing

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#90805 - 06/17/10 09:18 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
AnnaD Online   content
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
The method above totally wouldn't have worked for me. For most courses, I didn't use commercial supplements or didn't use them until the end of the semester, to clarify areas that were confusing. I don't take notes on my reading before class (except book briefing in the margins), and then I take copious notes while in class. I know a lot of people don't approve of this, but it's what works for me - I sort of outline in class rather than doing it before class. It keeps me paying attention in class and it gets all the bits the prof thinks are important (which matters most to me since the prof is writing the exam). I don't generally take notes on extended exchanges between the prof and students, unless I know the prof likes a particular approach (policy or whatever) and a given exchange is a good example.

(This approach may work better after 1L, though, when profs (here at least) are no longer so concerned with dragging you through facts, procedure, etc., in excruciating detail just to make sure you're getting how to read case law, and just want to talk about what's important about the case.)

The stuff about practicing writing essays and getting the outline done, narrowed down, etc., long before the end of the semester is probably good advice. I've never had the time to do anything remotely that organized, but if you can, I'm sure it's useful. The only caveat is that the first semester it might be difficult to practice quite as early when you're still figuring out how everything works - sometimes doing practice exams too early can be kind of demoralizing. But I didn't do LEEWS, either, so that probably makes a difference (i.e. I wasn't trying to learn/practice the method). Plus practice questions I could access were usually full exams, so it was hard to try to write anything when I didn't know half the stuff in the fact pattern yet. But if you can find good topic-specific hypos, I'm sure it would help (though it would also probably be worth showing a couple to your professor to find out if you're on the right track for what they'd want in an exam answer).

I would only disagree with not taking ANY notes in class, but that's because I'm not very good at listening without taking notes while I do. I know a woman who never took notes in class AT ALL (and is now very successful), so I know it works for some people, but I have a hard time recommending it because it's so foreign to the way my mind works!

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#90806 - 06/17/10 08:30 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
GerriP Online   content
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 200
Loc: Alabama
Just as 0L prep, I think study methods are highly individualized. Not only are study methods individualized, you will have to customize for each professor.

For instance, my Contracts professor wanted to know finite details about facts of the case. He purposefully does that so people will not rely on the commercial outlines. 2-3 sentences in my notes about a case would not be sufficient for that class.

I'm not against using supplements. But, I never found a commercial outline very helpful. I used other supplements, like the E&Es, Crunchtime, and Understanding series. I knew what I would be tested on would come from the professors.

I made my own outlines. It helped me to learn the information. I did synthesis them, but none of my outlines were as short as 20-30 pages. My synthesized outlines were around 20 pages, but not my main outlines. For those classes where I could use notes on the final, I used index tabs for my synthesized outline, so I could locate things quickly.

I also took notes during class. Not on what the other students asked/said, but on important points the prof made, and you'll pick up on what is important and what is not. Always write down anything they preface with, "An exam question.. " or, "A common bar exam question is ... ". I guess my question is - if you aren't taking notes from the cases, or the material you are reading, or from the professor while in class, what are you building your outline from? The commercial outline? I have yet to have a professor who writes his/her test from a commercial outline.

Some of my classmates never took a note in class. Some only read the outlines, although it's really obvious in class when someone gets called on that only read the outline or canned brief. I hand-briefed every case. It takes a lot of time in the beginning, but you quickly become efficient. But again, that's my learning style. Some of my classmates made their own flashcards. (Some made tons of them - imagine Ziploc baggies full of index cards). I do not learn that way, so it would be pointless for me to utilize that method.

Again, how you study will be individual to you. What worked for me, or Anna, or heck even Thane, may not work for you. I read Law School Confidential and used some of the methods it recommends. It took some time and trial and error, but I had to figure out the best thing for me and how I learn. Not to brag, but I did really well my first year. I'm on Law Review next year, which is strictly grade on at my school. But again, what worked for me would not work for everyone. Find how you learn and go with it. Forget what everyone tells you to do. Trust your instincts.

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#90807 - 06/17/10 10:13 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: GerriP]
AnnaD Online   content
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Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
Yeah, I completely agree with GerriP about doing what works for you (and congrats on Law Review, Gerri!). And I should add that my "outline in class notes" thing has worked (for me) mostly because I've had really good and organized professors. If your professor is all over the place in class, class notes are less likely to be helpful.
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#90808 - 06/17/10 10:44 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
GerriP Online   content
Senior Contributor


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 200
Loc: Alabama
Thanks AnnaD! I've had a couple of classes that were conducive for me outlining in class during lectures. For the most part, I've taken notes and them "cleaned" them up to put in my outline.
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#90809 - 06/17/10 11:14 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: GerriP]
backbencher Offline
NTL Addict


Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Florida
 Originally Posted By: GerriP
Just as 0L prep, I think study methods are highly individualized. Not only are study methods individualized, you will have to customize for each professor.

For instance, my Contracts professor wanted to know finite details about facts of the case. He purposefully does that so people will not rely on the commercial outlines. 2-3 sentences in my notes about a case would not be sufficient for that class.

Again, how you study will be individual to you. What worked for me, or Anna, or heck even Thane, may not work for you. I read Law School Confidential and used some of the methods it recommends. It took some time and trial and error, but I had to figure out the best thing for me and how I learn. Not to brag, but I did really well my first year. I'm on Law Review next year, which is strictly grade on at my school. But again, what worked for me would not work for everyone. Find how you learn and go with it. Forget what everyone tells you to do. Trust your instincts.


Wow, OL prep and you get it! This should be mandatory reading. I had the same issue with Contracts. No supplement would help and the professor demanded the facts of the case. This is the problem with anyone who has the secret study method for law school: professors. Some want the standard analysis, but some like facts and background. Some read the commercial outlines and brutalize students who sound like them, others don't care and reward it. You need to find the rhythm of each class and not count on professors acting like the books say they will.

The other good point made is that time is an issue. Some semesters I did not have time, between work and the straight reading, to use the supplements much less take practice exams. All of these depend on a crucial element: time. If you have iron discipline and no family, job, gambling addiction, etc., you might be able to do these things, and I saw even 20-somethings do it. (Although the early 1L practice test does seem like a temporal challenge that you would need Hermione Granger's Time-turner to pull off. Yes, let's take a test on material we haven'e learned yet. If it is Property, pretty much forget about it. Even after you study estates and future interests you probably still won't be able to answer the questions!) \:\/

And a final warning. Some people buy into "someone else's study method" so much that they focus more on following it than their classes. I have seen people run out of time because they were following a method they did not have the time to follow. Simple fact: people with LEEWS and Emmanuel fail law school every year and people who CLEP headnotes from LEXIS pass every year. Once again Backbencher's patented study system that will work for everyone:

Whatever works!
_________________________
"Audere est Facere" (To Dare is To Do)

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#90813 - 06/18/10 05:58 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
Aloha, All -

Well, I suppose I should chime in. = : )

What follows is a general musing, mostly from the short time I've been in other forums. Not that I would foresake y'all--quite the contrary--but precisely because the discussions tend to be so much more wounded elsewhere. The musings to follow do not relate in any negative way to anyone here; the hope is to use these experiences to help new law students find their way, but with a synthesized understanding of the real reality they're about to face, and the reasons why conventional approaches are unlikely to work. Please also keep in mind that we likely agree on much more than we disagree on, and would probably agree on even more with a balanced consideration of each point.

One of the issues, from my view, is that we are all-but programmed to contest another view. In law school, it's sexy and fun to shout "I disagree!" and then launch into some reasoning or another. One truth in law school is that law exams are about as close to a truth meter as there is. All of that posturing before the exam goes away thereafter. (And this does not discount that there are differing, valid priorities in terms of "success" in law school for each of us. My effort, nonetheless, is to point out ways to get better results with reasonably less work and much less stress.)

A corollary to the above issue is that we tend to think in false dichotomies: one is either a Type A gunning robot lacking any sense of decency and programmed by some generically-evil mastermind, or it's all about doing what feels good (which, elsewhere, often devolves to "Don't worry, be happy, don't prepare, watch 24, and get ready to burn out later!"). I don't think I'm exaggerating all that much in reading many of the threads elsewhere. Honestly, in coming in to this after a decade-plus on the sidelines, at first I was bemused, then horrified, then genuinely saddened. It doesn't have to be this bad.

Part of why I don't like to be boxed in is that nearly all of these perspectives (again, not here as much as elsewhere) are false. One shouldn't "study" in law school. One should learn the law. These are not merely semantic differences: they are different approaches. Yet, since all we've ever done was "study"--some version of memorization and regurgitation--for someone to say that there's a different reality is, well, weird and vaguely threatening.

As to the use of notes, for example, chances are this is not a real preference as much as it is an ingrained habit. It's a (bad) habit nearly all law students share. Why is it a bad habit? Because note-taking is less a reinforcement mechanism than a defense mechanism. Active listening in class, which precludes more than the occasional note, does far more to reinforce a concept. The second supposed value of notes is a permanence. The acid test for this is the value that they have after the class is over. As Anna states, outlining in class worked; it's less bad than not outlining. The question is whether it worked well, and whether it worked with less effort. I've enjoyed your posts, Anna, so please don't see this as a criticism--many of us did what you did. Your statements as to organization, becoming demoralized, and a lack of time seem to prove the point.

Law students are needlessly stressed. The natural reaction to advice to "prepare" is to assume this means "study a lot." It does not. And the natural reaction to any particular advice is "everyone is different, so no single method is better or worse than any other." I respectfully disagree. Yes, we are each different. But we are also the same. We are all smart. And we have all embarked on learning the law: a body of interrelated legal concepts. While there can be differences, sure, it is unlikely to be true that there are not also clear and consistent habits that work better than others.

To all soon-to-be-1Ls, I fully agree that you should view any advice--including mine--with a healthy skepticism. You should, clearly, do not only what is best for you, but also do so for the right reasons (i.e., reasons that are defensible and that are appropriate to your circumstances).

Again, I hope this is taken in the spirit intended. For most, law school is needlessly stressful . . . not because it's hard as much as it is disorienting and conducive to negative human (re)actions. All it takes are a few bad apples--in the cauldron of law school, that's potentially nearly everyone--or a bad market to bring these negatives to a boil. Understand what those realities are, accept the general consensus that law school IS different, and draw your conclusions from there.

And best of luck to all, truly,

Thane.

PS: Congrats, Gerri!

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#90814 - 06/18/10 06:38 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
All -

I thought I might emphasize that working on an outline can be a fair use of classroom time, with two caveats:

It's easy for "working on" to become "distracted by." The absolute value of class time is in listening to and understanding the discussions from your professor's point of view. This is not mere listening, it is listening . . . often called "active listening." If what your professor says makes sense, you're on your way. But it's hard to really, truly be paying attention if you're also trying to build an outline from scratch (including, of course, discerning structure and relationships of doctrines within the meandering conversation).

Second and related, while working on an outline in class is okay, wouldn't it be better to have already done that the night before, instead of pretending to read the case facts for the seventh time? If it is already done--just a handful of lines, mind you--you'll save time AND come class time it will be "just" a review.

See? We can too have fun. = : )

With aloha,

Thane.

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#90815 - 06/18/10 10:16 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
AnnaD Online   content
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
Let me clarify that when I said I "outline" in class, I don't mean that I'm outlining while listening to class as two different activities - I mean that I take notes in outline form. So I am actively processing what's going on by thinking about what is the umbrella concept, what's the first, second, third prong, what are examples under the second prong, etc. Again, this has been helped by having very organized and comprehensive professors who are very clear about how what they're talking about fits into an overall outline for the course (they don't call it an outline but that's what they're giving us).

I *don't* mean that I'm outlining material that's not what we're discussing in class that day. Plus, I take notes using outlining software that makes it VERY easy to signify relationships between concepts, so it's not like I'm futzing with the format instead of paying attention.

(I should also add that I don't really "outline" in the conventional way anyway - when I tried it turned into an exercise of making the notes *look* like an outline and spending too much time on headings, subheadings, etc., and not learning the material. So I try to take good, comprehensive, organized notes throughout the semester, and then at the end of the semester I print them out, put them in a binder, and study from them. I'll often make lists of important tests or organize different cases according to the principles they represent, that kind of thing, but I don't otherwise spend a lot of time at the end of the semester "transforming" my notes into an outline.

My grades jumped significantly when I stopped trying to do what I thought outlining meant. I'm not saying everyone should dispense with the traditional process - just that the way it's described in most places wasn't helpful to me.)

As for active listening without taking notes - that's a nice idea and all, but it doesn't work for me. If I don't take notes, I don't remember what we talked about. It's also the reason why I talk in class - it helps me remember the material. For me, note-taking *is* active listening because I have to pay attention in order to decide what to write down. Again, I'm sure this isn't the case for everyone. And sure, if I came into class with a complete set of notes maybe it wouldn't matter that I don't remember what we said in class, but for me it's a lot simpler just to take notes in class.

For me, your point that "studying well" does not mean "study a lot" is the take away. I find it a hell of a lot more efficient to read the material before going to class, listen intently in class, and take notes in outline form that become an outline, than it is to outline beforehand. That's for a bunch of reasons: when I take notes from reading I write down way too much; the reality is that if I spend lots of time taking notes on the reading and outlining, I won't do all the reading because I'll burn out on the activity before I get done with all my assignments (note: it's not that I'll run out of time - it's that I hate the process so much I won't do it); if I go to class with everything all in place and I'm just "adding" to it, my notes end up a confused mess (I've tried it and detangling the notes after is way too frustrating); and if I don't take notes in class, I don't pay attention, so I might as well not go.

(as for outlining before instead of pretending to read the case facts for the seventh time - that might be useful if I read cases seven times. I read the material once before class. Sometimes I look at parts of it a second time, if they're really confusing. But that's as far as it goes.)

It's also about efficiency - for me, I'm happy to tradeoff some of the prep time before class to 1) work my butt off while in class and at the end of the semester and 2) be able to take what might be prep time in another system, and apply it to more classes or to externships and moot court and law review. I'd much rather do a lot of things pretty well rather than fewer things perfectly.

But then, I also don't think that law school is so radically different from other kinds of school. My friends at school have frequently said, and I tend to agree, that you don't radically change as a learner in law school, and what worked for you in undergrad is what will work for you now. I mostly agree with that - the exception is that if you were one of those people who didn't really have to work in undergrad (you were in big classes that didn't require you to demonstrate any learning throughout the semester, so why read or prepare for class? and/or you just had to regurgitate information on the page at the end of the semester so you crammed a day or two at the end and got your A), then no, what you did in undergrad will NOT work for you!

BUT if you, like me and many of my friends, went to rigorous undergrads that made you work, and you figured out what kind of study techniques worked or didn't for you (for instance, like Gerri, I find flashcards unhelpful), there is no need to completely rebuild your study techniques from scratch just because you're in law school. Plus, I've spend more time in my adult life in school than out of it. Believe me, well before law school I'd tried every note-taking/information organizing method in the book, and figured out which ones help me and which ones don't.

Finally (really! almost done!), let me be clear that I am NOT posting this to provide a guide for what TO DO in law school. I am posting it as the anti-guide, to argue against the idea that there should even be a guide beyond knowing yourself and what works for you, because what I do doesn't seem to fit most of the proffered guides, and yet I'm doing well in school regardless. I DON'T mean that therefore anyone else should do any of what I'm doing. I'm just saying that there's not one right answer on how to study for law school.

Anna
(who doesn't actually think she ever said she's become demoralized)

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#90817 - 06/18/10 04:02 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
Anna & All -

I think we'll agree on a number of issues an disagree on one or two. You're quite right about efficiency. In fact, that was one of the core concepts that animates advice in GGG.

The danger, and where I do disagree, is in the idea that "law school really isn't that different." It is. It really is.

How do we know? Because the correlation between effort (e.g., studying, outlining, color-coding, whatever) and result (i.e., grades) is so low. My reading of your response confirms this (in my mind) rather than disputes it. The only students who have a decent grasp when walking out of an exam of how well they did are the students who have learned how to think like a lawyer (before the exam). This might seem like a throwaway (if not an insult), but I can tell you from reading essay after essay that most law students do *not* know how, and they certainly do not know how well enough to write a cogent, concise evaluation of a fresh set of facts.

To reinforce the point about just how different law school is, one aspect of this system that has troubled me for years is the strong correlation between students whose family or friends include a lawyer and those whose family/friends do not. Top students nearly always come from lawyer-families. Hmm. This cannot go to intelligence--by the very design of our admissions processes--so something else must be at work. That something else, I submit, is the process of refining a way of thinking.

I just spoke with a veteran professor, who admitted that he was shocked--shocked I tell you!--when he discovered that the advice he gave to his own daughter, who was about to enter law school, was in many ways 180 degrees opposite from the advice he had been giving to his students for decades. He was going through his own re-appraisal, if not moral crisis, in discovering that his advice had been, well, wrong for all those years. This both confirmed and highlighted my assumptions and sadness about how law students are so badly misled in law school. Not in the classroom as much as in the very ways they approach the study of law. Most are destined for sub-par performance--and, now especially, for very sub-par careers . . . entirely unnecessarily. And to add insult to injury, most work too hard. We confuse "work" with "study" with "learning" with "success" with "effectiveness" with "efficiency." And so we fall back on our old, bad habits.

The important point for all is that all of the techniques we're talking about can work. This should almost go without saying. The key is whether they work well, and whether they're the best, most efficient way to achieve that result. It is entirely posible to grind away, reading every case and footnote, 14 hours a day, 6.5 days per week, and on average that student will do better than the student who goes into the exam blind. What ought to raise our long-range scanner alerts is the fact that students who do VERY well are not always (or even usually) the ones who "study" the most. If that's not a giveaway, I'm not sure what would be.

At base it's a different perspective as to whether "each person is different and you have to find what works for you" or "darnit, the law is the law; there are better ways to learn it." Part of my perspective is that I believe all of American education has gone very, very wrong, and that most study habits for ALL years are poor. Just because we've done something and it works does not mean that that's the right way to do it. In our cases, it (those habits) worked not because they were good--they weren't--but because we were. We were at the top of the academic heap, and so we might as well have doodled in French expressionism all day and we still would have done okay, especially in the post-modern, feel-good classroom. There are exceptions, of course, but those exceptions prove the rule. Most of us really aren't challenged to our personal limits.

In law school, all that changes. Among the reasons I'm increasingly so firm in these convictions is a basic, indisputable fact: for the first time in most students' lives, the competition in law school is real, and for the first time, it's a "fair fight." Thus, for the first time, the ways in which we learn DO matter.

Anna, Backbencher, and all, I respect your views. Really I do. I held them myself. [I know this runs if not exceeds the bounds of being brusque if not rude. My apologies.] I did okay without hardly any organized studying--I found much of the process so utterly boring--but I didn't do nearly as well as I could have. I only really learned the law when studying for the bar exam, and during that process (which was the first time I enjoyed learning the law), I was shocked at how *little* I had understood in first year. I wasn't angry about it, but I should have been. It's only after years of talking with others and thinking about these aspects of law school that it's crystallized. (The irony is that I was usually the "company man" in dismissing much of the criticism. = : )

With aloha,

Thane.

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#90819 - 06/18/10 07:03 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: ThaneJMessinger
Anna & All -
...
How do we know? Because the correlation between effort (e.g., studying, outlining, color-coding, whatever) and result (i.e., grades) is so low. My reading of your response confirms this (in my mind) rather than disputes it. The only students who have a decent grasp when walking out of an exam of how well they did are the students who have learned how to think like a lawyer (before the exam). This might seem like a throwaway (if not an insult), but I can tell you from reading essay after essay that most law students do *not* know how, and they certainly do not know how well enough to write a cogent, concise evaluation of a fresh set of facts.
...

With aloha,

Thane.


Thane, like you, I have many threads on many law school boards. This one is the best, most mature and honest of them all. You guys are truly honest and helpful. Greatly appreciated!

Thane, would if be possible to post an example, or point to a good one, of what thinking like a lawyer means in the context of an exam. Perhaps a short exam hypo and what you think is an "A" response?

I went to "Entering Students Day" this week and had a great time. While not the oldest guy in the 1L class I am up there! I had a chance to talk to many 2Ls and one thing surprised me -- they said there was at least one prof who actually kicks students out of class if he feels they are not prepared. You are only allowed a certain number of absences and you get an administrative "F." It seems the school's philosophy is to "encourage" preparation of case material. How would the LEEWS approach work in this circumstance?

Orientation is in August. I am very excited about getting underway.

Regards,
Howard


Edited by fllaw (06/18/10 07:08 PM)

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#90820 - 06/18/10 08:27 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
AnnaD Online   content
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
 Originally Posted By: ThaneJMessinger
Anna & All -
The danger, and where I do disagree, is in the idea that "law school really isn't that different." It is. It really is.

Perhaps a better way to say what I meant is not so much that law school isn't different, but that we as learners aren't different. It seems to me that study techniques that didn't work for students before law school won't magically start working just because the setting is different. I've never been able to find a system of taking notes while I read that works for me; taking notes in class has always been helpful to me. Just because law school is asking me to learn something new doesn't change the way my mind works.

Now, chances are good that a lot of students haven't had the opportunity to *really* figure out which study techniques work best for them prior to law school, so need assistance figuring that out and will benefit from trying different things. And it's not that study techniques can't be improved. But there are a lot of different learning styles out there, and I just don't quite buy that the topic/way of thinking involved can completely override individuals' hard-wired learning preferences. (Of course people can adapt and learn how to learn in different ways, but people do fall into a number of fairly well-defined groups in terms of how their minds prefer to learn.)

 Quote:
In law school, all that changes. Among the reasons I'm increasingly so firm in these convictions is a basic, indisputable fact: for the first time in most students' lives, the competition in law school is real, and for the first time, it's a "fair fight." Thus, for the first time, the ways in which we learn DO matter.

Eh, I don't buy this. I think the ways we learn matter a hell of lot in a lot of contexts. Maybe for a lot of students (especially those straight out of undergrad) law school is the first place where it matters, but personally, I had to confront that lots of times in other contexts long before law school.

As for the "decent grasp when walking out of an exam of how well they did" - I don't really buy this either, because how well you do on an exam is dependent on what everyone else does. If everyone adopted the "perfect" study system, someone would still have to be at the bottom of the curve. So a decent grasp of how well they *knew the material on the exam* is NOT the same as having a decent grasp of how well they *did.*

Which I think gets to my last point (which I think I've raised before) - I think we're kind of talking at cross-purposes because getting good grades in law school and learning how to be a good lawyer aren't the same thing. Maybe they should be, but until they are, and until getting good grades *isn't* necessary (though not sufficient) for having the most opportunities opened up to you actually to get jobs that will teach you how to be a good lawyer, my focus is going to be on the grades.

(Howard, I'm so glad you enjoyed the entering students day!)

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#90821 - 06/18/10 09:16 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
Sartoris99 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 111
Well I'm a OL and I've just been lurking on this particular thread for that very reason. I wanted to glean what I could from other view points, but Thane has inspired me to chime in by mentioning a point on which I very much agree with him. American education has gone very, very wrong. Please don't anyone thing I'm arguing with any individual here-- I'm cantankerous in general it's not targeted. I am, however, skeptical of the notion that guides or methodologies are usesless because everyone is different.

I have spent all of my adult life trapped in some higher education context or another. For me this next three years, I hope, will take me away from the wretched mess once and for all. Although I'm sure my partner's career will continue to slop over into my consciousness now and again. I am reminded, more often than is healthy, of poor Addie Bundren in As I Lay Dying teaching in a country school house and yearning to flee her students and run down a hill to the spring, "where I could be quiet and hate them." When it comes to today's undergraduate students, I declare in quiet seclusion the same sentiment. I hate them.

Now before you panic, and contact the authorities, let me explain. I don't hate them as individuals. Most often I like them as individuals. But as a group they have a set of expectations that are repugnant, they are so steeped in postmodern relativism, that cannot conceive of objective criteria as fair.

I once had a student protest the fact that I had graded her paper based on the same standards I had applied to her classmates papers. This, she explained, was unfair because she had missed so much class and she didn't know the same things they knew. How was I supposed to evaluate her paper? Well, see it was really her opinion about a certain poem, and you can't grade an opinion, so why not just give her an A. That would be the fair thing to do, as it would account for her special circumstances as a person with a poor attendance record, and a uniquely ungradeable world view. It did not matter that she had confused Ann Bradstreet with Anne Hutchinson, read what was obviously a Wikipedia biography of Hutchinson and used that woman's life experience as a lens through which to interpret Bradstreet's poem. To hold her accountable for a factual historical error was to grade her on her opinion.

Sooo. . . what's this got to do with studying? Well I guess it's just that I hereby resolve to use the expression "for me" less often. I don't know if there's one best way to study, but I do believe that EVERYONE could have written a better paper than the above described student by coming to class.

I don't yet know what method I'll use, but I am determined to find it by evaluating the logic and efficiency of different methos-- and I guess that includes taking into account my own history as a learner, but I refuse to believe I am "special" in that obnoxious way that so many of today's undergrads do.

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#90822 - 06/18/10 10:26 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: Sartoris99]
Sartoris99 Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 01/07/10
Posts: 111
Now I'm starting to think my previous post seems too arrogant, though I do believe what I was saying. I wanted to add that I do totally appreciate Anna's point that anything that seems to present itslef as a "one-size-fits-all" sort of guide to doing well, is probably not going to actually work for everyone. I guess I just don't think it's because we're all different as much as it is because formulaic approaches can never anticipate every need or situation. Anyway, I didn't mean to come off quite so sourly as I probably did.
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#90824 - 06/19/10 05:46 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: fllaw


Thane, would if be possible to post an example, or point to a good one, of what thinking like a lawyer means in the context of an exam. Perhaps a short exam hypo and what you think is an "A" response?

I went to "Entering Students Day" this week and had a great time. While not the oldest guy in the 1L class I am up there! I had a chance to talk to many 2Ls and one thing surprised me -- they said there was at least one prof who actually kicks students out of class if he feels they are not prepared. You are only allowed a certain number of absences and you get an administrative "F." It seems the school's philosophy is to "encourage" preparation of case material. How would the LEEWS approach work in this circumstance?

Orientation is in August. I am very excited about getting underway.

Regards,
Howard


Howard & All -

There were several threads in lawschooldiscussion that dealt with the "thinking like a lawyer" part. One caution--and here's where I switch sides and agree that it's dangerous to do too much, too soon, is that without a fair absorption of black letter law, a hypo is likely to be more confusing than enlightening. This was a challenge in the book. If it's helpful, flip to pages 193-195 to see the two examples there. Do they help?

As to LEEWS, I would defer to Wentworth, but I bet he'd argue that with his 2-4 line briefing, you're more likely to do well than by following the norm (which is to burn out and start skipping too many cases to count, a version of legal Russian roulette).

What's problematic to all is that knowing a case doesn't mean spending an hour on it, much less hours. Follow Wentworth's prescription, borrowed from actual practice, and you'll be far ahead, even [especially] if the prof takes cases seriously. And you'll do better with less time spent--wasted. This was a major point underlying my various sections of advice.

(Clearly, of course, in such a class with such a prof the bar is raised.)

Best of luck in August, and happy thinking-about-law and summer until then. = : )

Thane.

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#90825 - 06/19/10 06:13 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: AnnaD

As for the "decent grasp when walking out of an exam of how well they did" - I don't really buy this either, because how well you do on an exam is dependent on what everyone else does. If everyone adopted the "perfect" study system, someone would still have to be at the bottom of the curve. So a decent grasp of how well they *knew the material on the exam* is NOT the same as having a decent grasp of how well they *did.*




Quite right, but in that old human way, I take this in exactly the opposite direction: because there is a curve, it is increasingly more important to challenge one's beliefs and habits. (I would suggest as well that most study habits in grade school and beyond are formed by accident and mimicry, not conscious thought. Worse, the schools themselves are the ones consciously attempting to get their A-F students in some semblance of order, and so THAT'S why they promote note-taking. It was never for the best students; it's for the worst.)

Because of the curve, it is harder to do well simply by doing what everyone else has been doing. Why? Because if only 5% of the class studies smart (plus 15% of the class with the lawyer-families), anyone else is already way behind. I don't like this any more that anyone else, but it does little good to pretend it's not true.


 Originally Posted By: AnnaD


Which I think gets to my last point (which I think I've raised before) - I think we're kind of talking at cross-purposes because getting good grades in law school and learning how to be a good lawyer aren't the same thing. Maybe they should be, but until they are, and until getting good grades *isn't* necessary (though not sufficient) for having the most opportunities opened up to you actually to get jobs that will teach you how to be a good lawyer, my focus is going to be on the grades.


Here's where I become a counter-revolutionary again. It's easy to assume that law exams are some outrageous, arbitrary, unreliable measure. They are outrageous. They are somewhat arbitrary (if the standard used is time spent, gunning, etc.), but they are not unreliable. They are falsely narrow, true, but they are HIGHLY accurate. Firms know this intently.

Getting good grades in law school and learning how to be a good lawyer ARE correlated. Strongly. There is a chicken-and-egg component, true . . . but only at the margins. I hesitate to take this further because of your last statement: "...my focus is going to be on the grades." This is precisely my point . . . not so that we would all become grade-slaves but because grades DO reflect the qualities of being a good lawyer. Grades are a symptom.

What would make me wrong would also make me happy (and cause headaches for professors and firms everywhere): 90% of law students understanding the law at an "A" level. The truth is that we're not even close. 5-10% of law students deserve an "A", and, from a practitioner's and professor's standpoint, most of the rest deserve a "D" or an "F". Your profs are equally slaves to the forced curve, however, and so "B's" and "C's" are given.

In law practice--which, presumably, is what this is all about--there is acceptable (i.e., perfect), and there is unacceptable (i.e., anything less than 100% perfect). Granted, this is more of a big-firm approach--but, then again, that's why they're the big firms. (I suggest reading both of Morten Lund's short and snappy books on this point. Absolutely essential to any new lawyer. I feel so strongly I recommend his two books over mine. Though I like mine too. = : )

Ninety percent of law students can do "A" work, but because of their awful habits, very few actually will. If law school were more like medical school, and most graduates had to do at least "B" (real) work to pass, everyone would be better off (but, ahem, we could likely not absorb 40,000+ new lawyers each year).

Does this help to explain my sometimes bit-too-brusque notes? = : )

With aloha,

Thane.

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#90826 - 06/19/10 06:36 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: Sartoris99]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: Sartoris99
Well I'm a OL and I've just been lurking on this particular thread for that very reason. I wanted to glean what I could from other view points, but Thane has inspired me to chime in by mentioning a point on which I very much agree with him. American education has gone very, very wrong. Please don't anyone thing I'm arguing with any individual here-- I'm cantankerous in general it's not targeted. I am, however, skeptical of the notion that guides or methodologies are usesless because everyone is different.

I have spent all of my adult life trapped in some higher education context or another. For me this next three years, I hope, will take me away from the wretched mess once and for all. Although I'm sure my partner's career will continue to slop over into my consciousness now and again. I am reminded, more often than is healthy, of poor Addie Bundren in As I Lay Dying teaching in a country school house and yearning to flee her students and run down a hill to the spring, "where I could be quiet and hate them." When it comes to today's undergraduate students, I declare in quiet seclusion the same sentiment. I hate them.

Now before you panic, and contact the authorities, let me explain. I don't hate them as individuals. Most often I like them as individuals. But as a group they have a set of expectations that are repugnant, they are so steeped in postmodern relativism, that cannot conceive of objective criteria as fair.

I once had a student protest the fact that I had graded her paper based on the same standards I had applied to her classmates papers. This, she explained, was unfair because she had missed so much class and she didn't know the same things they knew. How was I supposed to evaluate her paper? Well, see it was really her opinion about a certain poem, and you can't grade an opinion, so why not just give her an A. That would be the fair thing to do, as it would account for her special circumstances as a person with a poor attendance record, and a uniquely ungradeable world view. It did not matter that she had confused Ann Bradstreet with Anne Hutchinson, read what was obviously a Wikipedia biography of Hutchinson and used that woman's life experience as a lens through which to interpret Bradstreet's poem. To hold her accountable for a factual historical error was to grade her on her opinion.

Sooo. . . what's this got to do with studying? Well I guess it's just that I hereby resolve to use the expression "for me" less often. I don't know if there's one best way to study, but I do believe that EVERYONE could have written a better paper than the above described student by coming to class.

I don't yet know what method I'll use, but I am determined to find it by evaluating the logic and efficiency of different methos-- and I guess that includes taking into account my own history as a learner, but I refuse to believe I am "special" in that obnoxious way that so many of today's undergrads do.


 Originally Posted By: Sartoris99
Now I'm starting to think my previous post seems too arrogant, though I do believe what I was saying. I wanted to add that I do totally appreciate Anna's point that anything that seems to present itslef as a "one-size-fits-all" sort of guide to doing well, is probably not going to actually work for everyone. I guess I just don't think it's because we're all different as much as it is because formulaic approaches can never anticipate every need or situation. Anyway, I didn't mean to come off quite so sourly as I probably did.



Aloha, Sartoris -

I found your response arrogant and wonderful. Thank you. When you're next in Honolulu, I owe you and your partner one (1) mai tai each. If the mai tais are good, then three mai tais each. = : )

Here's to just a wee bit of objectivity re-injected into our astronomically insect-like lives,

With aloha,

Thane.

PS: I too agree with Anna that one-size-fits-all likely won't work, but probably more for the reasons you state than because there really aren't some regular sizes out there. A few sizes fit most? = : )

PPS: Shouldn't I get credit for my references to Anne Hathaway?

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#90828 - 06/19/10 12:23 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
AnnaD Online   content
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
But Thane, it seems that the reason you give for following your system over all others is that the other systems don't teach people to be lawyers. Whereas I'm arguing that other methods can earn students good grades, because I've seen it. If grades actually are a measure of being able to be a good lawyer, then why don't other methods that help students get good grades also teach students to be lawyers? And if students are getting good grades because of the curve, then how can grades actually be that symptom you describe them as? One of the things I've seen law profs talk about on a number of occasions is not that there's a gulf between A students and everyone else, but that it's difficult to create the distinctions that the curve requires, because exams are frequently so similar.

Also, I don't think the content of exams is arbitrary. I think the format is artificial: sitting in a room with 50 other people at 8 in the morning for 3 hours without being able to consult other people or anything other than what you bring into the room while you engage in a typing speed test because the easiest way for the professor to create a test that allows them to distinguish between answers is simply to put too much information into the exam for most people to be able to address it all in three hours. How does that remotely resemble the way lawyers are asked to work? Plus, pedagogically speaking, giving one exam at the end of the semester is a terrible method for helping students learn. The format of exams is designed purely to be able to rank students, not to help anyone learn anything or effectively measure learning.

(I do actually agree that there are a few sizes that fit most. It's not that there are *infinite* ways for people to study successfully - just that there are a number of techniques most likely to be useful to a large number of people, and there can be quite a lot of mixing-and-matching of those to create effective study regimes.)

Sartoris, your story reminds me of the student who argued with me for half an hour about how I shouldn't mark him down for not attending 1/3 of the classes - in a course with daily graded quizzes that couldn't be made up, which, of course, he missed 1/3 of - because, according to him, he had met the learning objectives identified in the syllabus without going to class, so he shouldn't be penalized. (That said, it's been tradition since the Middle Ages for teachers to complain about the next generation of students - which isn't to say that the special snowflake syndrome isn't a pain in the ass, or that our education system isn't screwed up, but I don't actually think the special snowflake syndrome is really the cause of the worst problems of our educational system. But that's a whole other debate...)

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#90829 - 06/19/10 02:27 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
forthguy Offline
Beyond hope


Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 1042
Loc: San Francisco, CA
(What's the equivalent of "Aloha" from Washington Dulles? I'm about 3.5 hours into my stay here with 3 hours scheduled to go, following last night's 5 hour stay at SFO. Who knew it could take almost 24 hours to fly from SFO to RDU?)

 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
But Thane, it seems that the reason you give for following your system over all others is that the other systems don't teach people to be lawyers. Whereas I'm arguing that other methods can earn students good grades, because I've seen it.


I don't think that's what Thane's saying. I've never seen any suggestion that student's can't get good grades with other systems, but that if they do, but that if they do, they'll do it through more work and with more stress than should be necessary (presumably if they're not one of the "naturals" Atticus talks about.)

 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
The format of exams is designed purely to be able to rank students, not to help anyone learn anything or effectively measure learning.


I think the format of law school exams measures understanding and "learning" of the law school material reasonably well. In that sense, grades as a proxy for lawyerly qualities doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

What law school exams (and law school generally) don't do is provide a gauge of practical, meaningful knowledge of an area of the law.

But being a lawyer is different. Those issue spotting exercises come up all of the time. Applying and weighing moderately congruent facts to the law is a common practice. Does it all have to be done in 3 hours? No. But time is money.

Are there great lawyers who were never able to put together a good law school exam? Almost definitely. But we're not talking about outliers; we're talking about "standardized" measures, which by definition won't address outliers. That's just the way things go sometimes.
_________________________
: star 42 emit ;

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#90831 - 06/20/10 05:22 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: forthguy]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: forthguy


What law school exams (and law school generally) don't do is provide a gauge of practical, meaningful knowledge of an area of the law.

But being a lawyer is different. Those issue spotting exercises come up all of the time. Applying and weighing moderately congruent facts to the law is a common practice. Does it all have to be done in 3 hours? No. But time is money.

Are there great lawyers who were never able to put together a good law school exam? Almost definitely. But we're not talking about outliers; we're talking about "standardized" measures, which by definition won't address outliers. That's just the way things go sometimes.


Howdy, forthguy -

Well, we'll just need to find a new salutation specific to Dulles. = : )

You're quite right that law school does not provide (and law exams test only tangentially) real-world legal issues. The truth is that law school and law exams are essentially procedural: the training and testing of whether one has the ability to form an intelligent, persuasive opinion about an issue based on legal constructs. Firms know this, and also know that they will be charged with the actual raising of lawyers, using actual law with actual clients.

This is one reason the picture is much worse than we discuss here: firms (and other law offices) must rely on the procedural proxy--those exams--to determine who is the least likely to fail at absorbing all those real-world lessons, and who is least likely to embarrass them while fitting in and dealing with the many stresses of law office life.

This is yet another reason your points are good: it's not about "success," it's about good success: achieving solid grades (or better) while maintaining a healthy life and attitude. Much as traditional students relish in the mindless, macho world of 12-hour days, this is a path to avoid in law school. Efficiency is just as important as raw effort. That's what animates my interest and the advice in GGG.

Thank you,

Thane.

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#90832 - 06/20/10 06:01 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
But Thane, it seems that the reason you give for following your system over all others is that the other systems don't teach people to be lawyers. Whereas I'm arguing that other methods can earn students good grades, because I've seen it. If grades actually are a measure of being able to be a good lawyer, then why don't other methods that help students get good grades also teach students to be lawyers? And if students are getting good grades because of the curve, then how can grades actually be that symptom you describe them as? One of the things I've seen law profs talk about on a number of occasions is not that there's a gulf between A students and everyone else, but that it's difficult to create the distinctions that the curve requires, because exams are frequently so similar.


I suspect we’re actually agreeing about more than we’re disagreeing on, but for fun, distraction, and to take a few of these points:

The problem as I see it is two-fold: most of the other systems are neutral-to-counterproductive. Most have reasonably acceptable advice, but some of what I’ve seen is, from the vantage of the professor or practitioner, simply silly. Color coding cases? That’s just layers of wasted effort.

We’re also going around in circles a bit about grades v. lawyering. The latter is knowledge + skill + experience. The former is too, with the exception that the knowledge tends to be superficial (because it is new), the skill tends to be inchoate, and the experience tends to be lacking. What exams do test is the ability to think like a lawyer. That is why the conventional advice--much of which utterly skips over this absolutely essential skill, and one of which says “there is no such thing as 'thinking like a lawyer'”[!]--is so potentially harmful.

The second reason is that this advice is not just misleading, it creates an environment of frenetic, wasted effort, leading to burned out shells of formerly good people. This, of course, carries its own implications for the profession (not to mention those shells).

Also, you’re quite right that profs have a difficult time telling exams apart: Not because they’re all good, but because they’re not. The handful of exams that might have been written by a lawyer jump off the page. The rest, from a practitioner's or professor's perspective, are just varying shades of dreadful.

Where I come in on this is that, as a matter of professional responsibility, this is flatly unacceptable. How can we a have a profession in which a majority of law graduates are certifiably unable to complete even the simplest of legal tasks--not because they’re not good enough, but because they’ve never been taught how--and a majority of them would be hard-pressed to craft a workable draft document (for a senior partner or judge, not professor). Add to this the factors of massive debt, swirling intrigue and subterfuge, and general miasma, and it seems the entire system is sick. It need not be.

For an individual the good news is that avoiding all of this is also the path that requires LESS stress and, overall, less work. [Note: I did not write no stress and no work.]


 Originally Posted By: AnnaD

Also, I don't think the content of exams is arbitrary. I think the format is artificial: sitting in a room with 50 other people at 8 in the morning for 3 hours without being able to consult other people or anything other than what you bring into the room while you engage in a typing speed test because the easiest way for the professor to create a test that allows them to distinguish between answers is simply to put too much information into the exam for most people to be able to address it all in three hours. How does that remotely resemble the way lawyers are asked to work? Plus, pedagogically speaking, giving one exam at the end of the semester is a terrible method for helping students learn. The format of exams is designed purely to be able to rank students, not to help anyone learn anything or effectively measure learning.


I agree absolutely that exams are an awful way to help students learn. (And I added an “Obiter Dicta” section in GGG for just this reason.) Yes, it would be possible to design exams that would both test and boost knowledge (and provide rankings to boot). Paradoxically, these would likely be some form of the MBE-styled exams that students love even more. (In any event you’ll not see me defending the law exam as the best tool of legal education. = : )

It’s doubtful, however, that any other conventional exam would be better. (Which is not what I recommend in GGG.) We could make the exam 8 hours, 24 hours, two weeks. We could make it 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 90 minutes. While we might find some shifts in who does how well (were we to run reasonably valid, ah, tests), what we would likely see is a duplication of the same reality: some students are more naturally legal thinkers, and some students have developed those skills better. We cannot change the former; the latter is what law school is (supposedly) all about. That’s what I’m all about: developing these skills in the best way with the minimum of make-work and nonsense. Or, as I like to put it, the maximum learning with the least effort. (Or, to be more diplomatic about it, "the maximum amount of learning with the least wasted effort.")

Is a three-hour exam inappropriate in terms of its implicit (and severe) time constraints? Anyone who has worked in a law office will know exactly how mild an exam is in comparison to an impending filing, emergency appeal, you name it. Most associates receive work at odd hours, at the end of the day (or week), and at the tail end of a progression where the client is often less-than-forthcoming with partners about what is truly needed. So, this is very much an appropriate measurement of the ability to meld a million details into a cogent analysis, and fast.

As it happens I knew someone who gave an 8-hour exam. Were the results any more conclusive? Perhaps, but again I doubt it. I doubt many students would be up for double-blind studies. What was true was that generations of his unlucky students were utterly exhausted prior to their next exam. Their words of, ah, due consideration were neither positive nor printable.

And as to the use of teams, funny you should mention that. As it happens I have used (and forced the use of) teams for years, in both graduate and undergraduate work. So, I write this in full support of proper team work. Yet again we’re presented with a problem: how do we ensure that each individual is really contributing to that team, is not riding on another’s coattails, and will be able to replicate that contribution elsewhere?


 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
(I do actually agree that there are a few sizes that fit most. It's not that there are *infinite* ways for people to study successfully - just that there are a number of techniques most likely to be useful to a large number of people, and there can be quite a lot of mixing-and-matching of those to create effective study regimes.)


I suspect we’re in agreement, mostly, but find ourselves on opposite sides of the median. Clearly there can be different techniques, and clearly we DO mix and match. But whether that is actually and necessarily good is a different question.

To follow our and Sartoris’ comments, it seems a virus has spread across the land. This virus infects people with the belief that, just because we are different, we are not also the same, with far more that connects us than divides. In education, this is the thesis (now assumption, based in precious little empirical evidence), that different learning styles create measureable and insurmountable obstacles to common learning. In short, each precious student (except the vast middle and top) must be accorded the utmost respect for their individual prefer...needs. This is doubly ironic in law, which is, after all, defined by its essence as a set of standards.

So, what we have is a rush to the exits (or to the arcades), where because “one size” is anathema, the answer must be “to each her own.” This is where we’re getting the “Don’t judge me!” attitude, and it’s both natural and logical when one tosses out the idea of objective standards. What has struck me of late is that we’ve thrown out the educational baby with the pedagogical bathwater. So, I don’t disagree at all with much of your comments; what concerns me is that it’s very easy—too easy for most—to simply rebel without a cause. This is what I read when I see "there's no right way to study!" Sure there is. There may be several right ways, but there are, equally, better ways, and there are worse ways. And law students today are mired in those bad, awful, horrible ways.

Even so, as you write, this touches upon a whole other debate. = : )

With aloha,

Thane.

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#90834 - 06/20/10 11:44 AM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: ThaneJMessinger]
AnnaD Online   content
NTL Addict


Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 565
 Quote:
It’s doubtful, however, that any other conventional exam would be better.
Which is why I wouldn't advocate a change to other conventional exams. (3 hours, 8 hours, whatever.) I'd add a series of graded assignments over the course of the semester, that require students to actually apply the material in the class (don't you think it would be helpful for students in Civ Pro to have to draft a complaint?) \:\)

 Quote:
So, I write this in full support of proper team work. Yet again we’re presented with a problem: how do we ensure that each individual is really contributing to that team, is not riding on another’s coattails, and will be able to replicate that contribution elsewhere?

There are ways to do this - undergraduate programs in some disciplines and MBA programs make extensive use of group work and manage to assess the work just fine - often doing things like having students write evaluations of each other and describe the work that each member of the team has done. Just because law profs haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done. And, realistically, one thing people who work in groups will have to learn is how to deal with the slackers.

 Quote:
In education, this is the thesis (now assumption, based in precious little empirical evidence), that different learning styles create measureable and insurmountable obstacles to common learning. In short, each precious student (except the vast middle and top) must be accorded the utmost respect for their individual prefer...needs.

I really don't think this is true. There are about four major learning styles (not infinite ones), and the idea isn't that a student who tends to learn in a certain way needs to be coddled and accommodated. The idea is that if a student tends to be a visual learner, for instance, the student can apply this knowledge to their own learning in their study (maybe by drawing flowcharts rather than traditional outlining, instead of struggling with written outlines that are harder for them). Also, the idea is that it improves teaching for *everyone* to think about presenting material in a variety of ways, where appropriate and possible.

(It's another thing entirely if you're talking about actual documented learning disabilities, which is a whole other ball of wax.)

 Quote:
This is what I read when I see "there's no right way to study!" Sure there is. There may be several right ways, but there are, equally, better ways, and there are worse ways.

But Thane, it seems at least to me that this debate arises every time the subject comes up because you are the one arguing that there is a right way to study - the one you advocate in your book - whereas the rest of us are saying there are several right ways. Just because we can all identify "worse" ways to study (and I'd love to know which of the approaches people have identified as actually using themselves count as "worse" ways) doesn't mean we're saying ALL methods are good. We're simply saying there are several right ways.

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#90835 - 06/20/10 04:06 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
fllaw Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 185
 Originally Posted By: AnnaD

But Thane, it seems at least to me that this debate arises every time the subject comes up because you are the one arguing that there is a right way to study - the one you advocate in your book - whereas the rest of us are saying there are several right ways. Just because we can all identify "worse" ways to study (and I'd love to know which of the approaches people have identified as actually using themselves count as "worse" ways) doesn't mean we're saying ALL methods are good. We're simply saying there are several right ways.


Anna,

I think the difficulty in this debate is that Thane is looking back over many years as a practitioner and professor, while you and others are still in the process of learning to be lawyers. The perspectives are different -- you are literally seeing different views of the same object.

I am just beginning the journey as well, and have zero experience in how law school study methods actually work. The debate is fascinating and frustrating. Folks in my position are saying "give us the holy grail, the secret that will make it all make sense." Obviously, there is no holy grail. But there is, for each individual, one way that is going to work better than others. The trick is to find it and find it soon enough so as not to not waste time and effort.

I made a decision to try Thane's methodology because it makes sense to me. If in actual experience I find it does not provide what I need, then I'll adjust based on my analysis of the situation.

In his book, GGG, Thane says that the law student has two responsibilities:
1. Learn the law, meaning "black letter law."
2. Learn how to use the law.

Given these parameters the goals are clear, if not easy.

Regards,
Howard

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#90836 - 06/20/10 06:53 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: AnnaD]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
 Quote:
It’s doubtful, however, that any other conventional exam would be better.
Which is why I wouldn't advocate a change to other conventional exams. (3 hours, 8 hours, whatever.) I'd add a series of graded assignments over the course of the semester, that require students to actually apply the material in the class (don't you think it would be helpful for students in Civ Pro to have to draft a complaint?) \:\)


Agreed, and very much so. (Would you believe I suggest something along these lines on pages 364-365? I can too be troublesome. = : )


 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
 Quote:
So, I write this in full support of proper team work. Yet again we’re presented with a problem: how do we ensure that each individual is really contributing to that team, is not riding on another’s coattails, and will be able to replicate that contribution elsewhere?

There are ways to do this - undergraduate programs in some disciplines and MBA programs make extensive use of group work and manage to assess the work just fine - often doing things like having students write evaluations of each other and describe the work that each member of the team has done. Just because law profs haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done. And, realistically, one thing people who work in groups will have to learn is how to deal with the slackers.


Again agreed, although the issue of differing levels of work within a team is a perennial problem, and for some teams, a nightmare. What's likely to work better is some combination. (Such as addressed on pages 363-364. = : )


 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
 Quote:
In education, this is the thesis (now assumption, based in precious little empirical evidence), that different learning styles create measureable and insurmountable obstacles to common learning. In short, each precious student (except the vast middle and top) must be accorded the utmost respect for their individual prefer...needs.

I really don't think this is true. There are about four major learning styles (not infinite ones), and the idea isn't that a student who tends to learn in a certain way needs to be coddled and accommodated. The idea is that if a student tends to be a visual learner, for instance, the student can apply this knowledge to their own learning in their study (maybe by drawing flowcharts rather than traditional outlining, instead of struggling with written outlines that are harder for them). Also, the idea is that it improves teaching for *everyone* to think about presenting material in a variety of ways, where appropriate and possible.

(It's another thing entirely if you're talking about actual documented learning disabilities, which is a whole other ball of wax.)


True enough. But intent and practice are not always (or even often) the same thing. What began as a useful differentiation has taken on a life of its own. As I suspect we both agree, this is rather beyond the scope of mere academicians. = : )


 Originally Posted By: AnnaD
 Quote:
This is what I read when I see "there's no right way to study!" Sure there is. There may be several right ways, but there are, equally, better ways, and there are worse ways.

But Thane, it seems at least to me that this debate arises every time the subject comes up because you are the one arguing that there is a right way to study - the one you advocate in your book - whereas the rest of us are saying there are several right ways. Just because we can all identify "worse" ways to study (and I'd love to know which of the approaches people have identified as actually using themselves count as "worse" ways) doesn't mean we're saying ALL methods are good. We're simply saying there are several right ways.


This is true, and it's equally true that an antagonism of sorts is easily set up. What concerns me is not the understandable frustration of students but the (in my opinion) stunningly bad advice that has pushed law students further in a direction of pedagogical dead ends. Yet these dead ends look like freeways, because they fit within the framework of prior experience, so naturally they are the ones used--not the very different legal framework that requires a quantum leap of faith. This I understand. My anger, such as it is, is in the mindless advice that is abetted by mindless "There are lots of good ways." No, there really aren't. Law is law is law. And the methods of thinking about law are pretty darned consistent. Ergo, it makes fairly good sense that a legal education ought to inculcate those methods, both substantively and procedurally. What we see, however--empirically--is that few law students truly get it. This is why it is so difficult to get good jobs, because firms very much know this. They see it everyday, and accept the rawness of talent as a necessary evil and expense.

But, as you state, this is at base a fundamental disagreement. My role here is simply to raise this so every new law student can at least be aware of this debate, and not plunge, lemming-like, into the abyss. And I write this with a bit of brusqueness because I too fell victim to some of these. I did okay, but I knew many who did not. That, to me, is a systematic shame, and the shame is on us.

With respect,

Thane.

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#90837 - 06/20/10 07:25 PM Re: Study Techniques: Advice and Comments [Re: fllaw]
ThaneJMessinger Offline
Senior Contributor


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 231
 Originally Posted By: fllaw
 Originally Posted By: AnnaD

But Thane, it seems at least to me that this debate arises every time the subject comes up because you are the one arguing that there is a right way to study - the one you advocate in your book - whereas the rest of us are saying there are several right ways. Just because we can all identify "worse" ways to study (and I'd love to know which of the approaches people have identified as actually using themselves count as "worse" ways) doesn't mean we're saying ALL methods are good. We're simply saying there are several right ways.


Anna,

I think the difficulty in this debate is that Thane is looking back over many years as a practitioner and professor, while you and others are still in the process of learning to be lawyers. The perspectives are different -- you are literally seeing different views of the same object.

I am just beginning the journey as well, and have zero experience in how law school study methods actually work. The debate is fascinating and frustrating. Folks in my position are saying "give us the holy grail, the secret that will make it all make sense." Obviously, there is no holy grail. But there is, for each individual, one way that is going to work better than others. The trick is to find it and find it soon enough so as not to not waste time and effort.

I made a decision to try Thane's methodology because it makes sense to me. If in actual experience I find it does not provide what I need, then I'll adjust based on my analysis of the situation.

In his book, GGG, Thane says that the law student has two responsibilities:
1. Learn the law, meaning "black letter law."
2. Learn how to use the law.

Given these parameters the goals are clear, if not easy.

Regards,
Howard



Thank you, Howard.

I would never presume to rest on any presumptive superiority of experience or position. That would be unlike me, and unkind--and it's entirely possible that the old fart is wrong.

It's true that, by odd luck, I've thought about these subjects for some years, but in many of my discussions (believe it or not), I've actually been the laggard. It was iconoclasts like Atticus Falcon and Wentworth Miller who were far ahead of me.

You're quite right that we're looking at this from differing perspectives, and that clearly affects our views. What troubles me as well is that the bulk of legal educators, for reasons best examined elsewhere, have remained silent, leaving just a handful to shout in the darkness. (Professors do drop hints, but because students' minds are so far afield, few of these hints are picked up.)

Where I'm going with this is the need for a testable hypothesis.

My hypothesis is that most study habits employed by most students are of only marginal benefit. (I argue that this is true before law school as well, but that it is most evident in law school, given the unique nature of measurements therein.)

To follow the point in your third paragraph, I think it's unfair of me to expect this leap of faith, especially in light of how far against the grain this goes.

So, here are my recommendations, with varying degrees of brusqueness:

1. If one chooses not to prepare at all in the summer prior to law school, it is possible to do well, but unlikely. Employers and professors will not care, and it will be too painful to look into the mirror to realize that there's only one person to blame. Thus, I recommend a limited commitment to preparation, NOW.

2. On the other side, those who decide to go "whole hog" will, on average, do well, but there are several risks. Among them is that some of the critiques against "pre-study" do have validity if the effort is to learn substantive law beyond the framework before classes actually begin. [First heretical sidebar: Studying from top down is far more effective than bottom up.][Second heretical sidebar: for anyone insistent upon top performance and prepared for/insistent upon heaping quantities of preparation, Planet Law School is your touchstone with, ahem, GGG to help put the goals in perspective and to keep those goals within reach.]

3. The acid test of preparation is this: If, during one's first week of law school, class makes sense, then that preparation is correct.

4. If, during one's first week of law school, the topics and cases and discussions do not make sense, then the student should engage in a screeching re-assessment of their methods.

5. Nine months IS plenty of time, IF there is no wasted effort.

6. By "make sense," I mean that the discussion would be akin to a discussion of why the separation of powers and checks and balances (from ol' 9th grade civics) are important parts of our constitutional heritage and key strengths to our system. This might seem a silly example, but there wouldn't be many, upon being reminded of these characterists, who wouldn't immediately recognize and appreciate these fundamental principles. In many ways, law school is rather easier.

7. So, one should prepare carefully, modestly, and intently, buiding an awareness and understanding of the framework of each of the six major subjects.

Any suggestions out there as to how I might better address the testability of this? Controlled experiments are unlikely, and the psychologies of students in law school is, in large measure, inhibiting to this (re)assessment.

One other point, also following from Howard's: What is the potential harm?

If Thane is wrong, what damage has he wrought? I would offer:

8. If the six frameworks built during the summer are unhelpful, delete the files, burn the hard copies, curse Thane's lineage, and buy lots of highlighters, pads, and pens.

Fair enough?

= : )

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